460 or 351C
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Senior User
Joined: Aug 2003
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460 or 351C
hi all
i have a 1978 shortbox ranger f150 with a 460 out of a 1976 couger xr7 in it.
i also have a 351 cleaveland out of a 1972 torino. it has 42,000 miles on it.
now i was wondering what engine would be the best for 4x4'ing.
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i have 4" 's of suspension lift and 3" 's of body over 36 x 12.5 x 15 tires with a 3:50 axel gearing. i am saveing for 4:11's . it is a posi 9" ford in back. d44 in front. the truck is a automatic.
it will be a daily driver and weekend bush cruiser
thanks for any input
i have a 1978 shortbox ranger f150 with a 460 out of a 1976 couger xr7 in it.
i also have a 351 cleaveland out of a 1972 torino. it has 42,000 miles on it.
now i was wondering what engine would be the best for 4x4'ing.
]
i have 4" 's of suspension lift and 3" 's of body over 36 x 12.5 x 15 tires with a 3:50 axel gearing. i am saveing for 4:11's . it is a posi 9" ford in back. d44 in front. the truck is a automatic.
it will be a daily driver and weekend bush cruiser
thanks for any input
Fleet Mechanic
Joined: Aug 2003
Posts: 1,546
Likes: 46
From: Kemmerer, Wyoming
I agree with Torque1st... off-roading in a truck requires low-end torque as well as moderate horsepower. A 460 is much better suited for these conditions than a 351c. A mustang like mine on the other hand... 
However, I do believe that you should switch to 4.11s, even with the auto trans. 3.50s would be fine with anything up to 33" tires, but 36" tires are just too tall for those gears IMHO.
However, I do believe that you should switch to 4.11s, even with the auto trans. 3.50s would be fine with anything up to 33" tires, but 36" tires are just too tall for those gears IMHO.
Elder User
Joined: Feb 2003
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From: Boise, ID
Originally posted by swann79
However, I do believe that you should switch to 4.11s, even with the auto trans. 3.50s would be fine with anything up to 33" tires, but 36" tires are just too tall for those gears IMHO.
However, I do believe that you should switch to 4.11s, even with the auto trans. 3.50s would be fine with anything up to 33" tires, but 36" tires are just too tall for those gears IMHO.
Engine choice? 460 hands down.
Posting Legend
Joined: Sep 2001
Posts: 30,255
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Watch your engine rpm's if you are using it for a daily driver with 4+ gears or you will be visiting every filling station along the road.
Torque multiplication is produced by the torque converter. You can get twice the torque out of an engine at any given road speed. Therefore you don't need those 4.11 gears. Any stock type vehicle that weighs 5000+ pounds and has 36" tires is going to be a little doggy.
Torque multiplication is produced by the torque converter. You can get twice the torque out of an engine at any given road speed. Therefore you don't need those 4.11 gears. Any stock type vehicle that weighs 5000+ pounds and has 36" tires is going to be a little doggy.
Fleet Mechanic
Joined: Aug 2003
Posts: 1,546
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From: Kemmerer, Wyoming
Originally posted by Torque1st
Watch your engine rpm's if you are using it for a daily driver with 4+ gears or you will be visiting every filling station along the road.
Torque multiplication is produced by the torque converter. You can get twice the torque out of an engine at any given road speed. Therefore you don't need those 4.11 gears. Any stock type vehicle that weighs 5000+ pounds and has 36" tires is going to be a little doggy.
Watch your engine rpm's if you are using it for a daily driver with 4+ gears or you will be visiting every filling station along the road.
Torque multiplication is produced by the torque converter. You can get twice the torque out of an engine at any given road speed. Therefore you don't need those 4.11 gears. Any stock type vehicle that weighs 5000+ pounds and has 36" tires is going to be a little doggy.
However, I can guarantee you that you will notice a SIGNIFICANT difference in low-range torque by switching the gears. A torque converter certainly helps when you are running the higher speed gears, but only to a point.
Also have to remember that the more strain you put on that torque converter, the more heat you're going to have to dissipate. Heat is an auto transmission's worst enemy! All being said, I think it makes the most sense to swap them gears.
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Fleet Mechanic
Joined: Aug 2003
Posts: 1,546
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From: Kemmerer, Wyoming
Just did some calculating FYI...
With 36" tires and a 3.50 gear ratio, auto trans, your rpms @ 65 mph should be around 2200. OK for mostly highway use, way too low for off-roading and towing.
same values, different gears (optimal rpms should be around 2800-3000 rpm according to most aftermarket manufacturers):
4.11 = 2560 rpm
4.56 = 2840
5.10 = 3177
After seeing those numbers, I would probably go with the 4.56 myself, as I really like using 2800 rpms as the guideline. Probably would be about perfect for a 460. If you want a little better fuel mileage, I consider the 4.11 the absolute lowest (numerically) choice.
PS... If you decide to go with the 351c... I wouldn't settle for anything less than 4.56s because the powerband in that cleveland is all in the upper rpm range.
With 36" tires and a 3.50 gear ratio, auto trans, your rpms @ 65 mph should be around 2200. OK for mostly highway use, way too low for off-roading and towing.
same values, different gears (optimal rpms should be around 2800-3000 rpm according to most aftermarket manufacturers):
4.11 = 2560 rpm
4.56 = 2840
5.10 = 3177
After seeing those numbers, I would probably go with the 4.56 myself, as I really like using 2800 rpms as the guideline. Probably would be about perfect for a 460. If you want a little better fuel mileage, I consider the 4.11 the absolute lowest (numerically) choice.
PS... If you decide to go with the 351c... I wouldn't settle for anything less than 4.56s because the powerband in that cleveland is all in the upper rpm range.
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Posting Legend
Joined: Sep 2001
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Remember to factor in about 10% slip for the automatic into the RPM calculations. That would make the figures quoted above about:
3.50 = 2420 rpm
4.11 = 2816
4.56 = 3124
5.10 = 3494
I did not check any of the above users math. The 460 is a low RPM torque engine and will suck lots of A/F mix when turning over. I like to shoot for ~2000 rpm for cruise on these big engines, lower if you can because they have the torque to do it. 2800 is way to high at 65 and at 75 it will be much worse. Small 352 and lower cubes can get by with higher rpms without killing your mileage, -and your engine.
3.50 = 2420 rpm
4.11 = 2816
4.56 = 3124
5.10 = 3494
I did not check any of the above users math. The 460 is a low RPM torque engine and will suck lots of A/F mix when turning over. I like to shoot for ~2000 rpm for cruise on these big engines, lower if you can because they have the torque to do it. 2800 is way to high at 65 and at 75 it will be much worse. Small 352 and lower cubes can get by with higher rpms without killing your mileage, -and your engine.
Fleet Mechanic
Joined: Aug 2003
Posts: 1,546
Likes: 46
From: Kemmerer, Wyoming
Originally posted by Torque1st
Remember to factor in about 10% slip for the automatic into the RPM calculations.
Remember to factor in about 10% slip for the automatic into the RPM calculations.
Anyhoo, I agree w/ torque that the low gears will make a big difference in the fuel mileage, but what you have to decide is whether or not the extra power is worth it. I do a small amount of towing in the mountains here in Wyoming, and all it took was one trip to haul wood with my 33's and 3.50s to disappoint me (and I've got a strong running 390). The 4.11s made a huge difference in the off-road and towing capability, and the 390 doesn't seem to mind 3000 rpms on the highway, either.
One thing I haven't done is calculated my fuel mileage after the gear change. I know I was getting around 11 mpg before the gear change. Something for me to think about I guess...
Senior User
Joined: Dec 2003
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From: Eastern Ohio
**you should switch to 4.11s, even with the auto trans. 3.50s would be fine with anything up to 33" tires, but 36" tires are just too tall for those gears**
I would beg to differ on the gearing vs tire issue. IF he were using the 351, or a 302, etc then the gearing change would be a good thing. But as the 460 is a pure torque monster, even with the 3:50's, if the motor is in good shape he should have no problem in lighting the tires up. Also with it being a daily driver, MPG is going to be a bigger concern than just a weekend warrior. The 460 w/3:50s and 36's will happily cruise down the road getting about the best MPG it can. Change the gearing up and forget about passing a gas station with it. Off roading it, if its not that extreme (ie: slightly slick trail), the torque and high range will be more than able to handle it. Extreme 4wheeling (ie: Rock crawling, soupy mud holes, extreme hills, etc) if you are in high range and doing that you have already made your first mistake, In low range, the gearing reduction thru the transfer case will provide enough power that even with the 3:50's you will have to watch how you use the throttle or you will over power your situation.
I would beg to differ on the gearing vs tire issue. IF he were using the 351, or a 302, etc then the gearing change would be a good thing. But as the 460 is a pure torque monster, even with the 3:50's, if the motor is in good shape he should have no problem in lighting the tires up. Also with it being a daily driver, MPG is going to be a bigger concern than just a weekend warrior. The 460 w/3:50s and 36's will happily cruise down the road getting about the best MPG it can. Change the gearing up and forget about passing a gas station with it. Off roading it, if its not that extreme (ie: slightly slick trail), the torque and high range will be more than able to handle it. Extreme 4wheeling (ie: Rock crawling, soupy mud holes, extreme hills, etc) if you are in high range and doing that you have already made your first mistake, In low range, the gearing reduction thru the transfer case will provide enough power that even with the 3:50's you will have to watch how you use the throttle or you will over power your situation.
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Senior User
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well guys , i think i will leave in the 3:50's for now. about the heaviest thing my truck will be hauling is my offroad tires if i go on a club cruise or a dirt bike. will use my fathers longbox if i have to haul anything. not much room in a shortbox especialy with a roll bar in it. l0l . thanks for all of your input
Junior User
Joined: Jan 2003
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one more opinion to add here. My truck has the 4.11's in it. Now I am not sure what kind of torque the 460 will have compared to my dad's turbo diesel 97, but his truck has 3.50's and we wish Ford still offered them in the newer diesels.
If his 460 has any power at all, the 3.50's will be just fine.
Ryan
If his 460 has any power at all, the 3.50's will be just fine.
Ryan
