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The Truck: 2002 F250 4x4 ,auto ,3.73 gears ,stock hpop ,stock fuel holding 55 psi in all tunes ,stock injectors (205 or 180/30's are possible in the future)
Mods: AIS, FRX, 363/68 .91 t4, hutch & harpoon, Hydra with TW tunes. There are other mods that don't pertain to this topic.
I have read all that I have found (which is quite alot) and it gets confusing at times. I'm trying to decide if I need an hpop or if something else is going on. I have some screenshots here of my files and really need some input. The ICP/PSI seems to be jumping alot.I have not deadheaded the pump yet nor checked for leaking injector orings. I am not having any starting or running problems at this time. I checked the fuel pressure the other day and the fuel looked clean. TIA for any and all comments.
1= Stock
2= Economy
3= Daily
4= Street
COLUMNS ARE:
D=Speed
F=Engine Load
G=Oil Temp
I= PW
J=IPR%
K=ICP/PSI Stock Tune Economy Street
Good that you are not having issues at this time. Also good to get a baseline on your truck with data like this, so you know what normal is, including what amount of "jumpiness" is typical.
Likely your HPOP is fine, but inadequate for what the tunes are asking for. You can dial back the tuning, or upgrade the HPOP (or both!) as I did. Whenever the tune starts adding fuel pulse width, the stock HPOP often cannot keep up, and ICP drops. It should still be steady though.
What program are you using to take this data? Can you attach the data file (.CSV format if possible) so I can take a look and do some graphs? Easier to see how the data behaves.
Good that you are not having issues at this time. Also good to get a baseline on your truck with data like this, so you know what normal is, including what amount of "jumpiness" is typical.
Likely your HPOP is fine, but inadequate for what the tunes are asking for. You can dial back the tuning, or upgrade the HPOP (or both!) as I did. Whenever the tune starts adding fuel pulse width, the stock HPOP often cannot keep up, and ICP drops. It should still be steady though.
What program are you using to take this data? Can you attach the data file (.CSV format if possibl) so I can take a look and do some graphs? Easier to see how the data behaves.
@BWST I will try to load that file. I'm using OBDLink MX+ and OBDLink software. I added rpm to it but, don't have any files with it at this time. The top shift point is between 78-80 mph.
@BWST That file shows tests that were not in the original screenshots. The ones that I have labeled were all done with approximately 1100 lbs in the bed and a 20 mph headwind with the exception of #1 (stock) where there was no headwind. I appreciate you taking a look.
This data starts with a stock program run, and looks normal. ICP, PW and IPR% are as expected. Your HPOP appears healthy.
The next run is a tune that is asking for 4ms PW, more than a stock HPOP can support with stock injectors. IPR% climbs because it cannot get enough ICP. It will drive pretty well with a healthy bump in power, but it's not as efficient as it could be.
It gets worse from there, with additional tunes asking even more PW (5 and 6ms), and IPR maxes out at 65%, ICP struggling. So I'd recommend using the 4ms tune at most, and not use these hotter tunes, as they will likely have higher EGT and some smoke if you stay in it.
I'd recommend getting FORScan and use it with your OBDLink MX+ dongle. It will process many more samples per second, smoothing the data and providing better resolution. And it will give you access to several PIDs that are useful, like MFDES and APP%. See the FORScan thread in the sticky section for more info.
So, in order to get a 205/30 to empty in 4 ms (3.5 ms to empty + latency with 4.2 ms being IDM limited) at 3000 rpm's I would need to get a stage 2 or similar pump to hold the icp to 2800-3200 psi?
Even though my stock pump is healthy it will not hold enough icp to empty those injectors? I could possibly get around 180-190cc out of my stock pump though?
From what you see in my tests and from your experience is this a reasonable analysis or am I forgetting or missing something?
In the meantime I think that I will try some PHP tunes.
So, in order to get a 205/30 to empty in 4 ms (3.5 ms to empty + latency with 4.2 ms being IDM limited) at 3000 rpm's I would need to get a stage 2 or similar pump to hold the icp to 2800-3200 psi?
Even though my stock pump is healthy it will not hold enough icp to empty those injectors? I could possibly get around 180-190cc out of my stock pump though?
From what you see in my tests and from your experience is this a reasonable analysis or am I forgetting or missing something?
In the meantime I think that I will try some PHP tunes.
200/30 empty at about 4ms on the bench at 3,000 psi. So in a truck with latency, you are looking at 5-5.2 ms to empty.
you can run icp up to help, but that depends on health of oil sides, the 200/30 I run hold 3,400 psi well. 3,400 drops you to about 3.75ms to empty on the bench
@BWST Thanks for your input and making those graphs. You confirmed what I was thinking. I got some other tunes and the truck runs and shifts better. It also seems quieter and that was not something that I was looking for or even expecting. @ESwift Thanks for your input as well. Pretty sure that I will end up with a stage 2 at some point.
You can try cleaning the IPR valve. If it's sludging up you could be losing some response time and efficiency. I've seen a member gain 500 PSI from simply taking the valve apart for a good cleaning. There are a couple YouTube videos showing the process. I'd link them for you but I'm on my phone so a little difficult at the moment.
I ran TW tunes years ago.
Began using the free PHP tunes once I swapped out to a Hydra. Didn’t know there was much of a difference because the truck isn’t driven often.
Fast forward, I got some TW tunes onto the Hydra and can switch on the fly. Found there to be a drastic difference in them once I could do an immediate comparison.
TW had much more engine noise and smoke. Plus the shifting was pretty harsh. This was across 2 trucks. Seems like the high mileage truck had a lot more startup smoke as well.
I ran TW tunes years ago.
Began using the free PHP tunes once I swapped out to a Hydra. Didn’t know there was much of a difference because the truck isn’t driven often.
Fast forward, I got some TW tunes onto the Hydra and can switch on the fly. Found there to be a drastic difference in them once I could do an immediate comparison.
TW had much more engine noise and smoke. Plus the shifting was pretty harsh. This was across 2 trucks. Seems like the high mileage truck had a lot more startup smoke as well.
Just food for thought.
We private messaged about this topic a couple of years ago. Man, time flies. I'm just now getting around to figuring everything out. Forscan, Mobile Hotspot, Bluetooth to adapter, downloading Hydraflash, USB to laptop, change settings, update drivers, learn how to etc...I'm not very computer literate. I did get some PHP tunes installed and a couple of tests run. The tunes that I loaded are 65 DD and 100 performance. The 65DD is asking for 4.1ms WOT and the 100 performance is asking for 4.68ms and my pump is holding icp at 2300 psi and 2100 psi respectively. Roughly 93% IPR. I like the shifting much better.
We private messaged about this topic a couple of years ago. Man, time flies. I'm just now getting around to figuring everything out. Forscan, Mobile Hotspot, Bluetooth to adapter, downloading Hydraflash, USB to laptop, change settings, update drivers, learn how to etc...I'm not very computer literate. I did get some PHP tunes installed and a couple of tests run. The tunes that I loaded are 65 DD and 100 performance. The 65DD is asking for 4.1ms WOT and the 100 performance is asking for 4.68ms and my pump is holding icp at 2300 psi and 2100 psi respectively. Roughly 93% IPR. I like the shifting much better.
It thought we may have discussed it but couldn’t remember. Definitely been a while and you’re right time sure does fly by!
So is the ICP better or worse? Mine does drop on PHP tunes when using the hotter ones, don’t remember which levels. I don’t typically monitor it much. I assume my ICP drops on TW as well but never checked.
Did you have a decrease in injector noise and less smoke as well? Just curious if your situation matched mine.
—the added noise I was wondering if may be advanced timing.
I think the only TW tune that was “quiet” was the economy version and that one was sort of anemic IIRC. The PHP Fuel Sipper still has the go when you crowd the pedal.
I ran TW tunes years ago.
Began using the free PHP tunes once I swapped out to a Hydra. Didn’t know there was much of a difference because the truck isn’t driven often.
Fast forward, I got some TW tunes onto the Hydra and can switch on the fly. Found there to be a drastic difference in them once I could do an immediate comparison.
TW had much more engine noise and smoke. Plus the shifting was pretty harsh. This was across 2 trucks. Seems like the high mileage truck had a lot more startup smoke as well.
Just food for thought.
for me?
No Smoke is a Priority, and I am running stock PHP library tunes.
after a year of testing, I settled on 80hp DD and leave it alone.
no smoke, perfect Transmission control, directly related to how you use the skinny pedal..... it emulates how my '01 K1500 Suburban handles and shifts.
the Suburban has a minor tune on it, More Torque at Low RPMs because I had to use it as a tow pig for many years. the 5.3L and 3.73 axle do not work well, it needs 4.10s at least, but being a 4x4 that was not an option.
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