If you are having to shim the starter and are grinding up the gear, then there is a bigger problem. I've never had to shim a starter on any Ford product. I save that for all my Ch*vy loving friends.

Sounds like you have a bad ring gear.

There is no reason why you can't use the bigger, higher torque 429/460 starter on a 351M/400. In most cases, it's overkill. But if the ring gear is bad, you are going to grind the gear up just the same way.

Ironically, I went to fire up the '71 the other night and was rewarded with the engine turning over several times, and then just "woooomp" - click - click - click. The battery was fine. Luckily, it stopped raining for half a day here and NAPA (for once) had a brand new 400 starter in stock. I got it changed in no time. That had to be the best "bad starter" story of my life, since most of them have been miserable.

 

The 400 starter is plenty powerful. My truck has a separate ignition and starter switch button. With the ignition switch off, truck in gear, I hit the starter and the truck will climb up the hill on my driveway, on the starter alone- the engine not running. This is with a new battery and starter. It will also drive through 8" of snow in 4WD out of my yard on the starter alone.

How do I know ?? I hit the starter and a few occasions with it in gear and the ignition switched off, by accident.

Things that make you go hmmmm....that's one ballsy starter on there.

 

Weust(?) Auto Electric out of indiana, has hi torque starters for 400/429/460 engines, for something like 130.00. All starters from a 400 will turn over a big block, albeit for a short while, while the motor is cold. Get it hot and a 460 starter has problems. Trust me, Went thru it not too long ago. Also, a hot 400, as in temp., has problems firing. These motors should have come from the factory with a hi torque starter, like chryslers did. But, that was fords mistake, and we're the ones left to fix it.

 

If you use the factory Duraspark ignition system it has a timing retard function on start that helps. Seems like Ford already fixed it...

 

The 400 has problems firing hot because of detonation, and that's a combustion chamber design problem, not a starter problem. Those Mopar reduction starters are junk, and I'm glad as hell that Ford never saddled us with them. Everybody I ever knew who owned a Mopar was constantly replacing them. Mopar owners in the know replace their reduction starters with early '60s 318 truck units, which are not reduction geared.

 

just a thought insteed of get all bent out of shape over who has the best starter, moter, knowledge.... let reread the 1st post and answer the question. can one use a 460 starter on a 400 moter?

 

Let's back up, so I can get everyone on track..

We went from a 351m to a 400. We put in a new starter with my new motor in 10/02. It lasted one year. A tooth broke on the starter gear, thus starting the grinding sound (not free spinning).

So, 2 weeks ago, we replaced the starter with another reman from autozone. Three days ago, it started making the same grinding sound, like it did when the first starter went out...So, we assumed I broke another tooth.

Tonight, I was stranded. This one lasted 16 days. At one point, it was trying to engage, but the gear wasn't traveling far enough. The rest of the time, it just spun freely, or partial engage.

My husband replaced it tonight in a parking lot. I took the other starter back, and explained what happened. The guy tested the starter, and watched the gear come forward only 1/2 an inch. Not enough to engage my flexplate.

I just bought my motor (Recon from Kragen), but they don't come with new flexplates. So, since my new motor, we've gone through 2 starters in 2 weeks. And this third starter, after walking out of the store, made a grinding sound, then fired. I showed my husband when I got home, and it grinded again.

Questions

1) if the flexplate was bad, why did the first starter last over one year (it failed because of the tooth of the starter broke off).
2) starter number only lst 2 weeks, and would partially engage, and not even engage). My husband expected the flexplate, none of the teeth were chipped. So, they appear fine.
3) this third starter is grinding right away.
4) If the bottom bolt wouldn't tighten up all the way, could it be causing a problem? (my husband is going to change the bolt in the morning)
5) does the 351m and 400 use the same number of teeth on the flexplate.
6) Do Kragen and autozone use the same rem starters?

Imagine this. Bingo night is starting (carloads are coming), and here's this woman (me), banging her starter with her steering wheel club (cussing it out). I rocked my truck forward, in hopes to move the flexplate a little. I tried to jumpstart with with a screwdriver, talk about being hopeless. We're both so frusterated with the starter issues my truck is having. Could it just be bad starters? Should I just invest in a high torque starter? He can get them for 85 off the net (which he runs in his car).

 

Absolutely. The started is going in at a cocked angle and the teeth are not engaging the flexplate all the way.

Yes.

Who knows? Do yourself a favor and stop buying remanufactered starters. I just bought a brand new starter for my 400 at NAPA for $38. I've stopped using Kragen and the like, because NAPA just seems to have better stuff. Yes, they are a bit higher, but my local store will match Kragen's price, so why not?

The problem here is that the starter is not seating properly. It's not rocket science - the starter should slide into the hole easily and bolt right up.

Reasons it wouldn't? Burrs on the starter flange. Stripped bolt hole. Not very many.

It could be that your husband is putting in the top bolt first, then torquing it down before starting the bottom bolt. This could **** the starter sideways in the hole. The correct procedure is to seat the starter, start both bolts and snug them both up before tightening them.

Other than this, I don't know what to say except that maybe it's time to let a mechanic install the starter. No offense intended.

 

My husband is very mechanically inclined. I know this isn't the mounting that is the problem. Keep in mind, when I had my tranny rebuilt in 01, I bought a flexplate also.

The problem seems to be that the gear in the starter is only grabbing the edge of my flexplate. My husband noticed that two to three teeth on the flexplate were slightly worn on the edge. But, the teeth were all still there.

Why did the first starter last for so long if the flexplate was bad? Shouldn't the starter engage the full length of the flexplate teeth?

 

Hello,
i'm BigBlu's hubby. I've installed many many starters in all kinds of cars over the past 35yrs. After looking closely at the flexplate and the starter gear. it's very obvious that the starter gear is not coming forward far enough thus only the very very edge of the starter gear is engaging the flexplate, so after a few uses of the starter, it begins to just grind and nick up the edges of the flex plate teeth.

I think it's time to upgrade to a new HT version before these junk starters ruin the flexplate.

BTW. I did loosen up the top bolt while I found a lower bolt that would tighten up well, so the starter IS seating properly..

I do wonder tho about that thin plate that is used between the bell housing and the block. it seems to me that if that plate was removed that the starter would then be able to mount directly to the bell housing thus allowing more of the starter teeth to grab.

anyone aggree?
Scott

 

yup they are both 164 tooth 10 degree pitch i beleive

now i have seen some 460 starters that bolt up to bellhousing, vertically unless the pic was just represtive of what it is

 

That plate you mention is only about 1/16 inch thick, so taking it out isn't going to give you enough to make a difference. Besides, the starter was designed with that plate taken into account.

There is some kind of problem that is causing the starter gear not to engage fully. Putting a high torque starter on isn't going to change that, unless the starter is bad to begin with.

You say there are a few places where the flexplate teeth are nicked. It could be that the starter gear hits these spots, and then won't push in all the way.

What is the condition of the cable between the starter and solenoid? The solenoid itself? If the starter wasn't getting proper current, it could cause this to happen.

Make sure that your negative battery cable is bolted to the block, and not the frame or body. That could cause a poor ground.

I'd take a set of jumper cables, hook them to the starter, put the starter on the ground, plant my foot on it to pin it down and touch the cables to the battery. Then you could see if the gear is being thrust forward all the way.

I'm not aware that there are any differences between 351M and 400 starters. If you have a sympathetic parts man, ask to see both. See if one has a longer nose on it that will allow the starter gear to move in farther. Look at a 429/460 starter while you're at it. They will bolt up. But I think they are all the same, to be honest.

I don't know if small block starters will bolt up to the 400 or not, but if they do, maybe they are giving you a small block starter and the gears don't match up.

Sure hope you guys get this worked out.

 

this is why(getting wheezer parts instead of 351m) i usually ask for 400 parts if they are the same as the 351m .
and they are mostly the same(90% atleast)

 

Grr. I need a new flexplate. The flexplate was rotated, and teeth are missing. I guess from the first starter (tooth broke), it did it. So, every grinding, began to take out my flexplate.

Another learning experience. I didn't know a flexplate could be taken out so quick.

 

make sure that your getting a starter for an automatic, and not for a manual. i know everyone says they're the same, but guess what they aren't. i bought a gear reduction starter for the truck with the 400, and when i put it in, it made a godawful noise. pulled it out and found a wear pattern on only about a 1/4 inch of the starter teeth, no problems with the flexplate. we compared the new starter to the original, and the original had a snout that was about 1/2 an inch longer. sent it back, got the right one, and now it turns over with authority, no problems at all.