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"460 Cooling System Flush with Filter Sock - Fail"
Good morning guys. i have an Experiment Fail that I wished to share concerning an attempt to flush my 460 cooling system with in-line Sock Filter.
Here is how this "experiment" began. Story below.
The engine in my '78 Ford E250 Trekker Van sprang a coolant leak at the base of the water pump-to-timing cover gasket. Not good news.
So, that was August 29, after a quick 30-mile dash south. Once home, and after removing the old water pump, I discovered that the gaskets which seal the water ports from Timing Cover to face of Engine Block had apparently been 'seeping' for some time. Not good news either
Below is my Thread explaining my questions concerning changing the timing cover while leaving the oil pan in-place:
Below is the continuation of this Filter Sock thread:
So when after the timing cover install, I removed the thermostat housing and thermostat, there was a clump of gook whitish brown the size of a 1/2-inch diameter marble of gel gook lying on top of the thermostat. That wasn't there two years ago when I had the radiator re-cored, yes, during Covid.
Not an encouraging sight. Also down in the bottom of the Edelbrock alum intake manifold water port there was some whitish mix goobers that with liquid in the bottom of the water passage, they looked like mini-jelly-fish approx 3/8" to 58" in diameter and 1/8" in height. I'm getting nervous.
Note: at this time, the inside of my radiator was clean and spotless.
So, I begin research on the net for Cooling System Flushing. What I did find in my travels was some threads with mixed discussion on Flushing techniques.
One fella chimed in and said that for old engines which have sat for awhile, he inserts a Pantyhose foot in the cooling system upper return hose just above the thermostat housing to catch debris. Ok, I may need to consider this, because I had my original radiator re-cored approx 200-miles ago. It is super clean.
Here is the story of the failed experiment with using a Cooling System Flush with a Pantyhose Filter Sock:
I believe it was the JalopyJournal forums where one of the members suggested inserting the foot of a pantyhose into the coolant return hose to catch suspect debris that may be residing in the cooling system. I decided to try this suggestion as an experiment.
Remember, I am not savy about doing cooling system flushes, so bear with me.
I cut approx an 8-inch long piece of the foot from an old pair of the sweetie's pantyhose. The leg had a run, but upon quick investigation, the foot appeared sound and ready for a new task being an "inline coolant filter". I pushed the pantyhose up into the coolant return hose (upper-hose) with a screwdriver handle as instructed, and installed the hose back onto the thermostat housing with approx 3-in of hose wrapped back around the outside of the coolant hose.
I removed the thermostat for free-flow of the coolant.
Because I plan to back-flush the cooling system after a short drive I topped off the cooling system with straight water.
Note: I was afraid to attempt removing the block water jacket drain plugs for fear they may not wish to come out or stripping, so didn't fuss with them.
I fire up the engine allowing it a few minutes to "warm-up" then went for a 4-mile loop shake-down run. After 2- miles, the engine temp is reading slightly above normal, so I beet-feet back to the house. I crack the radiator drain plug valve and begin draining the coolant, and anxious to see what the pantyhose sock filter picked up if anything. My concern is that the sock failed, allowing debris to plug the radiator core tubes leading to the higher than norm temps.
I'm gonna post this while i go eat breakfast, so I don't loose it, and will finish up afterwards with an explanation of results of findings.
Ok, back after breakfast of eaggs and fried smoked ham. YUMM
After the coolant had a chance to cool somewhat, I undid the clamp from lower hose to radiator and worked it loose.
The lower hose was new and tight, and tough to work loose with my snap-on pick with 90-deg bend.
Pantyhose filter check:
I get the hose broke loose at the base of the upper hose and pull out the black pantyhose filter sock. Empty !! _ _ _ as I had feared, a Fail.
After carefully turning the pantyhose filter inside out and being Empty, I discovered the 'run' had a hole at the toe, so was a fail from the start.
Note: Be sure to to carefully check the toe area of the pantyhose for possible holes or weak areas. Actually, now having done this, next time, I'm gonna use both feet, so two layers of hose filter. I was impressed that the hose to housing didn't leak during the 15=minute shakedown run.
Upon observing the "empty" pantyhose filter sock, my fear was a reality when I removed the radiator cap and looked inside.
Sludge goobers all over the top of the vertical core tubes covering them up so a big restrictor of system circulation. That is why the increase above normal driving temps.
Well, I phoned my rediator man yesterday late afternoon and fessed up my Fail, and I'll be bringing in my radiator that he re-cored for me in 2020.
Since then, the Trekker Van probably hasn't been driven over 200-miles with all of the down-time because of gremlin solving.
His name is Mike, and he chuckled and said he has a machine just for flushing radiators. I will take it to him today, as I removed it late yesterday. Ugh.
Looking back, I should have back-flushed the system from radiator end of upper hose back through the cooling system and out the radiator end of lower hose prior to driving. The cooling system flushing and cleaning is new to me, so not familiar with common methods.
The 460 in this Trekker Van had been driven seldom of the last 18-years, which was the reason for petrified timing cover gaskets leading to this thread. haha
Late yesterday, after the engine had substantially cooled down, I did back flush the system with the garden hose on full-blast for approx 5-mins total.
I didn't see any goobers either. The color of the coolant at beginning of the flush was brownish green then turned light brown and nearly clear.
Today, I will pick the brain of my radiator man, and see what he suggests for cooling system flushing and cleaning.
Also, I need to remember to ask about electrolosis of the old timing cover casting which was aluminum of some sort.
The old timing cover seemed to be the 'dedicated' anode for the electrolosis to occur. (just like in marine jet pump housings, there is some cavitation leading to the electrolosis). My nephew says I can get a drain plug for my radiator which had an Anode in it.
Ok, now I wait to see what my radiator man suggests, and put the cooling system back together again, and see what happens.
Long ago back in the '70's my dad used to get those cars that would come in with a rusty cooling system. Oldsmobiles and small block Chryslers were bad for that but really any engine could get rusty. You can flush forever and it'll never quit coming back rusty. He started just cutting a heater hose and installing a water filter like used on a big diesel. You didn't even have to flush the system first, just put it on there and over a month or so the system would turn from rusty to green again. Sometimes you'd have to change the filter on a really bad one but then after that it would stay clean.
@DaveMcLain
Interestingly, after asking Mike, the owner, what he's been working on, and he said Dodge heater cores have been plugging up with black casting sand.
The heater core acts similar to an in-line fuel filter water trap, and the sand settles to the bottom plugging the heater cores.
I sure wish I would have inspected the pantyhose with closer eyes, but oh well, we win some and we loose some.
All in all, the effort for the Pantyhose in-line Debris Filter was a fun experiment being a home repair attempt.
I thought I bookmarked the HAMB thread where the guy shared the story of the Pantyhose coolant Filter trick. (no, there is no app yet for this). hahaha
I will just keep moving forward, and licking my wounds (mis-fortunes) on this cooling system nightmare.
The old timing cover sure looked to be the sacrificial anode for electrolysis to chew on.
In the meantime, I've been tidying up my home wood-lot getting ready for the onslaught of Winter and it's fury.
Getting all big knot wood cut with chainsaw so they can be split down further. My splitter is only powered by a 6-hp Harbor Freight "Predator" horiz shaft engine.
Good cardio to keep a guy fully Stretched to be Limber like a young sapling. hahaha
More later as I proceed further down the Rabbit Hole deeper and deeper.
5:35pm Wednesday - Flushing report with Positive Results !
So, after backflushing the cooling system yesterday with the garden hose on full blast, I ran the water out the lower hose into a 2 or 3 gallon bucket, tossing each one over behind the van. It was probably the 6-th bucket and last for the evening that I set the bucket down to allow the water to settle out overnight.
This afternoon, I happened to think about the bucket, and Low-and-Behold, there was DEBRIS. _ _ _ best news I've had in awhile.
The flushing is actually working to my amazement.
The debris is white and greenish hard deposits kind of crystalline which will probably turn white once dried.
When wet the crystalline chunks look like small gravel chunks but are not gravel.
See photos below: Zoomed-in shot of the flushing debris. That tells me the flushing does work to some degree of unkown certainty. when wet, the translucent crystalline debris looks just like wet beach gravel. But it is more like a lime deposit (electrolosis).
I'm going to attempt to remove the water-jacket plugs to maybe enhance the flushing and maybe remove more debris.
Mike, the owner of the radiator shop says he has chemicals which will break down most hard deposits. (probably hydrofluoric acid).
I am actually beginning to maybe see some "light" at the end of the tunnel on this Flushing endeavor. (my first ever backflushing of an engine block).
Kinda cool really when we are successful at a First-time-experiment.
Oh yeah, also almost forgot, I did ask Mike if he does power flushes of engines, and he said YES all the time, and fee is $150 which includes new coolant and water. Hoses are charged to the customer if needed.
While on the subject of Radiator repair shops and cooling systems, I wanted to share Mike's diagnosis of my '77 AMC 304 V-8 cooling system woes.
When my 304 was belching at 240-degrees, I did take the cj-7 up to Mike before removing the radiator and such. The outside temps were 102, and the engine was purring like it should while idling and must've been near 200 degrees while idling. Mike pointed his temp-gun all over the radiator, therm housing and hoses.
His conclusion was: I don't think your radiator is your problem. All temps thru it are normal. Hats-off Mike, you were correct.
The cooling woes on the 304-AMC was a broken head bolt that I finally noticed upon close inspection. A new / used pre-stretched head bolt cured the issue.
So, during the entire course of the 2023 Run For The Hills weekend, I never once lifted the hood, and temps held normal.
I did put in a know working temp gauge ahead of the 2022 RFTH weekend, which had 104-degree valley temps.
The first attempt single layer of pantyhose failed. Why ? I have no clue. Maybe too fragile of material.
Possibly I may need to consider rough-and-tough pantyhose made by Carhart. hahaha _ _ commercial duty severe-service. Brothel-tested comes to mind.
Yesterday, I decided this experiment needs a Second-Attempt.
Therefore, I cut two pieces of pantyhose leg and placed it partly into the intake neck of the radiator, installed hose and snugged the clamp.
Next, came the Shroud. Boogers Had to remove the upper hose-to-radiator to insert the fan shroud. Again insert hose filter and install hose and clamp.
Because this is a "flushing" shakedown run, I only added tap water to the system with thermostat out for good flushing, and headed out for a spin.
I ran the engine with no mercy for about an 8-mile turn-around and the temp remained normal.
When I returned home, I had no drips anywhere under the engine, and that was Promising for sure.
I then opened the petcock to drain the water from the system and to be able to inspect the Pantyhose filter sock. The pantyhose filter was another Fail.
Two layers this time, and it blew out also like the single layer attempt numero one. Attempt numero two is a fail.
On a promising note, upon removal of the thermostat cover for re-install of the thermostat, the inside coolant passage of the intake manifold is clean once again with no while electrolysis debris. I also ran the engine with the system non-pressurized, and the temps behaved.
Oh yeah, when removing the thermostat housing, the new Fel-Pro blue gasket peeled in two. That Gasgacinch sealer works and grabs aholt.
I can't wait to get the cooling system sealed up and re-filled with the new Yellow universal Coolant and go for yet another "Spin".
Below is a few "tid-bit" photos of the underside of the vehicle i am tinkering with:
Above photo: do you recognize the Tie-Rod ? What would be your guess ? How about the drag-link ?
Ha, the Tie-Rod is from 1986 GM corp front axle assembly.
The drag link is from 1986 GM 4x4 cut down tubular to accept the rod end for the Ford Pitman arm (Greaser modified).
The steering knuckles are also from said above donor '86 GM K2500 3/4 ton pickup install on a Ford Dana 44 axle housing from '78 F250.
Above photo showing the "Greaser-built" conversion of this '78 Ford E250 Chateau wagon (Van). I converted it to 4x4 in 1992 / 1993.
It is a great off-road capable fun rig and tow trailers well. Pretty much now a Raptor Van. hahaha
Interesting over the decades i wore out two sets of Mickey Thompson 34" tires and a set of BFG 35" all terrains and now on new 32" BFG 285/75-16 mud terrains.
Tires shown in this photo are the old BFG 315 -16 tires which were removed in Oct of 2022.
Oh happy dayz, i think my cooling system is cleaned and ready from all of the back flushing my wife and i did two evenings.
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