Hi all,

I'm stuck in Perry, GA and looking for any advice...

Background: 2006 F250, 6.0. I left my house with my 5th wheel and family last night and drove 130 miles to a campground. Truck was fine, I unhooked and shut of off to set up. And after i got set up, i wanted to move the truck but it wouldn't start again.

I use a scangage 2, and monitor EGT and fuel pressure. All was good during the trip, but when trying to start afterward, I noticed 85% IPR, with less than 200 ICP while cranking. So I decided to leave it until morning. Note, I've never had trouble hot or cold starting before.

This morning, at ambient temp, I have:
-FICM Sync
-47.5-48.0 FMP while cranking
-IPR is commanding 85 while cranking.
-ICP is less than 200 while cranking.
- I unplugged the ICP sensor and tried cranking, scangage show a value of 1400 while cranking, but still no start.
- I have about 60 psi fuel pressure
- low oil pressure Guage on the cluster comes up after a few seconds of cranking
-i'm seeing the tach move while cranking, scanner reads 184 rpm while cranking, but my battery isn't fully charged now after messing around.

I'm borrowing a charger from another person at the campground and need to charge the batteries.

Does anyone have any other ideas of things I can look at or check?

I don't have a compressor or fittings with me to check for leaks on the high pressure side.

Thanks in advance!

 

Well, you are measuring you can’t generate good high pressure oil, and by disconnecting the ICP sensor, you can’t fool the PCM that you have good pressure, so therefore you can’t generate high oil pressure.

Only two things can do that; not enough oil out of the LPOP (you have gauge movement?), the HPOP has failed, a massive leak, or the IRP has failed.

You could pull the oil filter and see how quickly the canister tries to fill to check LPOP output. Away from home, the next is a parts throw; replace the IPR.

Were you monitoring the IPR command at all?

A better code reader like ForScan would really help here.

 

Thanks TooMany Toys!

I pulled the oil filter and cap off the housing so I could see how long it takes to fill.

It took 6 seconds of cranking to fill the housing up to the bottom of the threads.

I don't know of that's good or bad. It also bubbled as it filled, not sure if that's to be expected.

I did watch watch IPR command. KOEO ITS 14.8, then immediately goes to 84.7 wile cranking.

Any other thoughts before I try an IPR valve?

 

The fill rate is good.

There are ways to check and clean the IPR valve, but away from home, in a campground, if you have the tools to change the IPR (with a Ford one), it's what I would do. You're not in a great position; the choices after that are finding a good shop or towing it and the camper home 130 miles.

 

If its an 06, and hasn't had the STC connection replaced, it's 80% likely its the STC.

The 05 and up HPOPs are strong and rarely fail.

First thing I'd do it pull the IPR and hope to find the screen clogged. If you do, you've found your problem. While you have it out, you could rig up some wires and check to make sure it's operational. If its not operational, get a new one and install it. If it is operational and you had a clogged screen, clean the screen and reinstall. If the screen is damaged, its a gamble to put on a new screen and install the old IPR. I'd probably go ahead and replace the IPR because I wouldn't want to gamble while in a campground.

IF the IPR checks out, I'd pop the top on the HPOP and change the STC (if it has not already been changed). I can't imagine doing that without some sort of top side creeper. I use a piece of plywood laid on my cattle guard and the intake elbow with a piece of carpet on top. If you don't have a cattle guard, the radiator or shroud will hold up under the load too.

IF the STC has already been changed, you've got a massive leak in your stand pipes. Changing those required pulling the valve covers, and maybe oil rail (at least on he passengers side. I don't remember if the oil rail has to come off on the drivers side). Pulling the oil rail will require proper torquing to reinstall. I could be wrong, but I don't think your standpipes can leak enough oil to give you the same pressure on your high pressure oil when cold and when hot.

My guess is the STC fitting. You can change that in the campground with a limited assortment of tools.

 

Check it out, the piece behind the front seal is disintegrated.

 

Screen was dented and a lot of debris. Got a new one delivered and going to try it.

 

Please be aware that an IPR valve with debris on the screen is not going to tell the entire story! Ford and International say that some MINIMAL debris might be normal, but it also might represent an upstream issue. Just keep that in the back of your mind.

NOTE - The IPR is a dump valve. Oil that goes THROUGH the IPR is on its way to the crankcase (this happens when the pressure in the high pressure oil system is higher than desired, and thus the valve is then actuated in order for the pressure to be reduced, ie bled off into the crankcase).

Debris on the screen will block off the flow through the IPR valve to a SMALL degree ONLY. It doesn't take much blinding for the debris to subsequently be pushed through the screen and into the IPR valve.

Blocking this screen by itself will not cause lower ICP pressure. If anything, it will act to increase (short term ONLY) the ICP pressure. Again - if/when the pressure profile pushes debris INTO the IPR valve, it will most likely cause the IPR valve to stick after that (might stick open or might stick closed). When it sticks in an open position (ie more open than desired), then the ICP pressure will suffer, but ONLY if the IPR valve can not properly move to react to the command of the PCM. Be aware that the IPR % Duty Cycle is a command ONLY. We have no way of knowing the actual position of the IPR valve! If the IPR valve is operating normally, then this duty cycle command can REASONABLY represent a valve position, but it's true operational characteristics need to be remembered (no position feedback, and duty-cycled operation).

A torn o-ring at the bottom of the IPR valve can absolutely contribute to low ICP pressure, but a clogged screen on it's own can not.

The IPR valve can be cleaned out to a degree (some internet videos show this), but changing it out WITH AN OEM PART is probably best.

Be aware that many people buy a "Parts Store" IPR, and these cheaper valves just do not seem to last long (weak electronics seem to be an issue). Sometimes though - you have to do what you have to do.

Lastly - do not over-tighten the IPR valve on installation. the o-rings do the sealing! Over-tightening can impair its operation/function.

 

That's not a lot of debris. I assume you scraped some off before the photo because that's not enough to dent the screen.

 

The new IPR made no difference. Basically the same as before, 185 ICP cranking.

I'm running out of options with my abilities and tools on hand.

I know it's not good, but i started it with a shot of ether. Once running, with new IPR now, it runs and drives normal. I drove it around for a while at speed and some stop and go, and it acts normal. I monitored things while driving and things seem good in terms of temps, etc, but I don't usually monitor icp and ipr while driving so I'm not sure if there are any clues there.

After warmed up, ipr is commanding 18.7 while idling, and reads 587 icp.

 

Here's a video at highway speed. Wasn't flooring it, it was in a higher gear, but i wasn't getting into it enough to downshift.

Anyone have any thoughts about these icp/ipr values?

 

After working on the high pressure oil system, it is common to have insufficient ICP pressure until the air has been fully bled from the system. Could that be what you have experienced? By getting it started on ether, you have then been able to run it and bleed the air out?

If so, maybe the IPR valve did make a difference?

577 psi at 19% IPR % duty cycle does not indicate a leak to me, but hard to say I guess.

 

Ether kicked the rpm up high enough to meet the pressure minimum and run; there is enough volume (cold?) to keep it running. Might be a leak.

Hot might be a different story. Hot, it might not even start with ether. I'm not sure anyone can predict if you'll be fine for a run home - you may be. The oil will get hot and thin, pulling the trailer. It's a toss-up from my chair. Probably monitoring what the PCM is commanding could give a clue how bad it gets.

 

After the 1st drive I let it sit for about an hour , and when it wouldn't start I used ether when it was warm. That's when I took the video.

Im going to let it sit overnight, and we'll see how tomorrow goes for the return trip.

Thank you all for replying! This site is a great resource, and I appreciate you taking time to help me! I hope you have a good holiday!

I'll followup with findings, or I'll be back asking questions

Thanks again!

 

I was writing the last post before you posted the video, and missed Mark's comment, too. Always an adventure!