Total fuel system replacement.
Mountain Pass
Joined: Apr 2023
Posts: 130
Likes: 75
I never understood why the truck manufacturers never put sump drains on their fuel tanks like we have for aircraft. Especially with diesel. It'd be so easy to just sump it every time you topped off (after letting it settle for a bit). If I had a diesel I'd definitely be adding a sump drain to the tank and checking it regularly. It's crazy the money you guys have to pony up when your fuel gets contaminated.
Fleet Mechanic
Joined: Jan 2015
Posts: 1,377
Likes: 293
From: SE Michigan
I'm curious (and be honest): How often did you drain your fuel/water separator? And how often did you replace the element?
More Turbo
Joined: Jun 2020
Posts: 715
Likes: 337
From: Texas Hill Country
@Poncho450 It does seem amazing that these monster engines are held together by such delicate systems. I mean, a giant, over-engineered engine with a fuel system more delicate than a Faberge Egg! It's not just that either, it's myriad things that can not only stop the engine, but kill it dead.
My next point is this: How is it that a diesel engine is a $10k - $12k option, but just the fuel system alone cost $12k to replace. Same with the emissions system. It seems like the $12k option cost $30k to replace. It doesn't make sense. I'd have to be pulling some serious weight too go back to diesel in this environment, and I'd be testing fuel before it went into the truck. It's just crazy. How did diesel trucks run 50, 60, or even 70 years ago? They couldn't have been this easily destroyed or they would've never been used.
My next point is this: How is it that a diesel engine is a $10k - $12k option, but just the fuel system alone cost $12k to replace. Same with the emissions system. It seems like the $12k option cost $30k to replace. It doesn't make sense. I'd have to be pulling some serious weight too go back to diesel in this environment, and I'd be testing fuel before it went into the truck. It's just crazy. How did diesel trucks run 50, 60, or even 70 years ago? They couldn't have been this easily destroyed or they would've never been used.
Fleet Mechanic
Joined: Dec 2021
Posts: 1,735
Likes: 1,116
My 7.3L PS and 8.3L Cummins run on a blend of my shop waste oils. I run the oils through sub micron filters to remove the majority of particles the fuel filter wont catch, but I could just dump it in the tank straight from the oil change pan as others do and it would run. Cant do that with a new truck.
Cargo Master
Joined: Jul 2011
Posts: 2,658
Likes: 968
From: Walpole, MA
^^^^ diesels over the last thirty years have become extremely complicated hardware. One of the sneaky issues with ULSD is it is more hydrophilic than previous flavors of diesel, so water separation and contamination is more of a challenge than before. Add in the fact the injection systems are running 6, 8 and 9 injection events at 2 or 3 times the injection pressure of engines of yesteryear, they are not simple machines anymore, So when they go boom, it is big and expensive unfortunately.
FTE Leadership Emeritus
Joined: Sep 2000
Posts: 23,174
Likes: 1,678
From: Stephensville WI
@Poncho450 It does seem amazing that these monster engines are held together by such delicate systems. I mean, a giant, over-engineered engine with a fuel system more delicate than a Faberge Egg! It's not just that either, it's myriad things that can not only stop the engine, but kill it dead.
My next point is this: How is it that a diesel engine is a $10k - $12k option, but just the fuel system alone cost $12k to replace. Same with the emissions system. It seems like the $12k option cost $30k to replace. It doesn't make sense. I'd have to be pulling some serious weight too go back to diesel in this environment, and I'd be testing fuel before it went into the truck. It's just crazy. How did diesel trucks run 50, 60, or even 70 years ago? They couldn't have been this easily destroyed or they would've never been used.
My next point is this: How is it that a diesel engine is a $10k - $12k option, but just the fuel system alone cost $12k to replace. Same with the emissions system. It seems like the $12k option cost $30k to replace. It doesn't make sense. I'd have to be pulling some serious weight too go back to diesel in this environment, and I'd be testing fuel before it went into the truck. It's just crazy. How did diesel trucks run 50, 60, or even 70 years ago? They couldn't have been this easily destroyed or they would've never been used.
Cargo Master
Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 2,898
Likes: 184
I always recommend a Disaster Prevention Kit be installed to separate the CP4 crank case from the high pressure side to prevent garbage from the CP4 going bad from getting into the HP side, but in a case like this, it would not prevent the sludge from getting into the injectors.
You could take it to a pro diesel shop that can test the injectors and have them do a full fuel system cleaning. If the injectors were just sludged up, they may be salvageable. They would need to replace the rails since they are one time use, and maybe replace the CP4, which could save you thousands. Have a DPK installed while they are at it.
A word of advice for others, if you find water in the system, enough to trigger the light and have visible amounts come out. Drain your tank and flush the lines, and replace the filters. Don't drive it! Unless you did something stupid like left the cap off in a car wash or in heavy rain, there should be no water in the tank, or at least for those in humid conditions with a nearly empty tank that sat for months, the amount from condensation should be minimal, but if you drain out water and the light is triggered, you got some bad fuel, get rid of it and flush that system. If you can't do it, tow it, don't start it, pretend you poured gas in the tank. The cost for the tow and labor is FAR less expensive than replacing the fuel system.
You could take it to a pro diesel shop that can test the injectors and have them do a full fuel system cleaning. If the injectors were just sludged up, they may be salvageable. They would need to replace the rails since they are one time use, and maybe replace the CP4, which could save you thousands. Have a DPK installed while they are at it.
A word of advice for others, if you find water in the system, enough to trigger the light and have visible amounts come out. Drain your tank and flush the lines, and replace the filters. Don't drive it! Unless you did something stupid like left the cap off in a car wash or in heavy rain, there should be no water in the tank, or at least for those in humid conditions with a nearly empty tank that sat for months, the amount from condensation should be minimal, but if you drain out water and the light is triggered, you got some bad fuel, get rid of it and flush that system. If you can't do it, tow it, don't start it, pretend you poured gas in the tank. The cost for the tow and labor is FAR less expensive than replacing the fuel system.
More Turbo
Joined: Feb 2022
Posts: 556
Likes: 402
From: Texas
I haven't owned a diesel since a 1997 7.3 other than the Kubota diesels in a BX 2380 and a Bobcat S185. Are today's Ford diesels really that delicate or is that just the impression that I get from reading posts here? Do other brand diesels have many known issues?
They sell these 6.7's by the boatload so someone must be having good service out of them. I'm just curious, I'm a happy 7.3 gasser owner.
They sell these 6.7's by the boatload so someone must be having good service out of them. I'm just curious, I'm a happy 7.3 gasser owner.
Modern diesel problem. Not just a Ford issue.
Even modern light duty diesels (VW, Mercedes, BMW, etc) have this same issue. HPFP and Injectors are weak links on many modern diesels.
Hence why many people are going gasser (w/ 10 speed) if they don't absolutely need a diesel.
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Lead Driver
Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 7,921
Likes: 2,642
From: The Great State of Texas
Modern diesel problem. Not just a Ford issue.
Even modern light duty diesels (VW, Mercedes, BMW, etc) have this same issue. HPFP and Injectors are weak links on many modern diesels.
Hence why many people are going gasser (w/ 10 speed) if they don't absolutely need a diesel.
Even modern light duty diesels (VW, Mercedes, BMW, etc) have this same issue. HPFP and Injectors are weak links on many modern diesels.
Hence why many people are going gasser (w/ 10 speed) if they don't absolutely need a diesel.
Ooops wrong engine.........
Hotshot
Joined: Oct 2006
Posts: 10,137
Likes: 7,951
From: Texas
There is a reason that GM and RAM / Cummins both abandoined the Bosch CP-4 fuel injection pump. They figured out that it is a bad design.
Why hasn’t Ford?
Also watch this video, @FishOnOne thank you for sharing.
https://www.ford-trucks.com/forums/1...e-failure.html
Why hasn’t Ford?
Also watch this video, @FishOnOne thank you for sharing.
https://www.ford-trucks.com/forums/1...e-failure.html
Cargo Master
Joined: Jul 2011
Posts: 2,658
Likes: 968
From: Walpole, MA
It wouldn't be the first time ford has hung onto something controversial, I mean the pinto was killing people...
But more likely Ford's failure rates aren't high enough for them to want to change. Again IMHO ford did a better job on the low pressure fuel system than GM or dodge. GM IIRC didn't even use a lift pump, which boggles the mind. Dodge has had a spoty reputable with lift pumps going back to the VP44, even the intank pumps of 2005+ were hardly adequate and only provided 8-12 psi to the pump. Ford on the other hand has a system that flows three times what is required with pretty good factory filtration at higher inbound pressure.
I agree on the pantheon of injection pumps a cp4 is closer to a db2 or VP44 than cp3 or p-pump, however it can survive at pressures the others can't.
Lead Driver
Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 7,921
Likes: 2,642
From: The Great State of Texas
There is a reason that GM and RAM / Cummins both abandoined the Bosch CP-4 fuel injection pump. They figured out that it is a bad design.
Why hasn’t Ford?
Also watch this video, @FishOnOne thank you for sharing.
https://www.ford-trucks.com/forums/1...e-failure.html
Why hasn’t Ford?
Also watch this video, @FishOnOne thank you for sharing.
https://www.ford-trucks.com/forums/1...e-failure.html
Cummins implementation of the CP4 with non symmetrical pump was an absolute disaster right out of the box and they shortly changed to a symmetrical pump design but the PR damage was already done. They still use a CP4.2 in their 5.0 engine.
Bosch did implement pinned roller lifter cups to prevent rotation which has been the major failure source and improved filtration design so there has been some changes
Lead Driver
Joined: Feb 2022
Posts: 7,955
Likes: 4,039
@Poncho450 It does seem amazing that these monster engines are held together by such delicate systems. I mean, a giant, over-engineered engine with a fuel system more delicate than a Faberge Egg! It's not just that either, it's myriad things that can not only stop the engine, but kill it dead.
My next point is this: How is it that a diesel engine is a $10k - $12k option, but just the fuel system alone cost $12k to replace. Same with the emissions system. It seems like the $12k option cost $30k to replace. It doesn't make sense. I'd have to be pulling some serious weight too go back to diesel in this environment, and I'd be testing fuel before it went into the truck. It's just crazy. How did diesel trucks run 50, 60, or even 70 years ago? They couldn't have been this easily destroyed or they would've never been used.
My next point is this: How is it that a diesel engine is a $10k - $12k option, but just the fuel system alone cost $12k to replace. Same with the emissions system. It seems like the $12k option cost $30k to replace. It doesn't make sense. I'd have to be pulling some serious weight too go back to diesel in this environment, and I'd be testing fuel before it went into the truck. It's just crazy. How did diesel trucks run 50, 60, or even 70 years ago? They couldn't have been this easily destroyed or they would've never been used.
Nope. First, Ford would have to prove the DPK caused the damage, and second the kit is designed to prevent the damage. Look up the Magnuson-Moss act. It specifically points this out to prevent a manufacturer from voiding warranties ***** nilly. Any way you look at it, if water/algae/sludge got to the injectors, it would not be covered anyway, but would not void the warranty, it just would not be warranted. The DPK would not prevent the water from getting to the injectors, nor would it CAUSE water to get to the injectors, so your argument is false.
Thread Starter
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Cross-Country
Joined: Apr 2008
Posts: 83
Likes: 13
From: Vancouver, BC
Quick update: after Ford told me they couldn’t get parts for 2months I looked south of the border and found my own- for $3k cheaper…
Dropped them off at Ford and they said, “thank you very much. Btw, none of these (OEM Ford parts) are covered under warranty as you did not buy them from a CDN Ford dealer.” Sheesh.
So, I went out and bought a nice, original owner ‘09 with a 6 speed manual and am doing a Ppumped 24v Cummins conversion. The Tremor will be going for sale as soon as it’s out of the shop. Bye bye overly complicated fuel system!
Dropped them off at Ford and they said, “thank you very much. Btw, none of these (OEM Ford parts) are covered under warranty as you did not buy them from a CDN Ford dealer.” Sheesh.
So, I went out and bought a nice, original owner ‘09 with a 6 speed manual and am doing a Ppumped 24v Cummins conversion. The Tremor will be going for sale as soon as it’s out of the shop. Bye bye overly complicated fuel system!
Fleet Mechanic
Joined: Aug 2022
Posts: 1,581
Likes: 1,116
There is a reason that GM and RAM / Cummins both abandoined the Bosch CP-4 fuel injection pump. They figured out that it is a bad design.
Why hasn’t Ford?
Also watch this video, @FishOnOne thank you for sharing.
https://www.ford-trucks.com/forums/1...e-failure.html
Why hasn’t Ford?
Also watch this video, @FishOnOne thank you for sharing.
https://www.ford-trucks.com/forums/1...e-failure.html
Dave