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I’ve used a small punch and hammer to get the old seal started to come out. It is probably pretty hard. Than grabbed them with a vice grips and pulled it out.
putting the new one is about the same as rolling in the top bearings. Coat it with oil. Also. Don’t line up the ends with the block. Have to off set them so it seals better. So part of the lower seal will also be stuffed up into the block.
I might give it a try, sure enough. I didn't mess with the upper half in '92, so it's vintage '77 still. Your response tells me it's possible. I'v even thought might take a large zip tie, like a flex cuff size, that's thick, trim it to fit in the groove, use it like a flex punch too.
I might give it a try, sure enough. I didn't mess with the upper half in '92, so it's vintage '77 still. Your response tells me it's possible. I'v even thought might take a large zip tie, like a flex cuff size, that's thick, trim it to fit in the groove, use it like a flex punch too.
When I did mine the same way it moved as soon as I hit the hammer and punch, coated the new in grease and slipped right back in. Once it moves it should pull right out.
When I did mine the same way it moved as soon as I hit the hammer and punch, coated the new in grease and slipped right back in. Once it moves it should pull right out.
Well, I'm thinking I'm gonna try it.
Now they are calling for rain Tuesday too, but Wed-Fri looking decent. I don't expect it to take three days, but I do take longer getting up and down these days. I'm pretty sure I dropped the track bar at the frame mount end in '92, but I'm not sure I really even need to once I have the front axle at full drop.
Also when I did mine I was in no hurry so I drained the oil and let it sit for a day. Then once pan was removed I went in with a rag and wiped everything I could dry. I passionately hate stuff dripping on my face. I might have even sprayed everything with brake and parts cleaner if I remember correctly and let that drip and dry off before I went under there after it.
Mine was also just a rear main job when I did it. The rear journal cap was the only one I touched and it pushed right out. With every journal being loose for the roll in job it should be a breeze.
The worst part the whole job is putting the damn oil pan back up into place and getting bolts in it. (Unless oil is dripping in your face then that's the worst)
I was really worried about issues when I did mine but losing 1qt every 100 miles of light driving no load I had to try.
I hope yours goes as easy.
Rainy day sounds like a good day to let it drain if the environment will allow.
Yesterday I picked my spot to work, got the truck up on ramps then jacked the frame up to give me more room under the oil pan (4x4) but first I removed the old plugs while the pan drained (to make it easier to rotate the crankshaft as needed), and I numbered the old wires, disconnected the battery- post connection too (so no chance of accidental start while pan is off) ... and then I pulled the dipstick out and tube off (note the tube is secured at the pan with a tube nut too), then I dropped the oil pan (20 bolts, I used 1/4" drive ratchet). I did NOTdrop the track-bar at the frame or axle end this time. I found some very few itty-bitty bits of silver particles in the oil pan in a small sludge pile near the drain, I don't know if they are recent or 30+ years old, but they looked like aluminum, they are non-magnetic ... like aluminum would be.. They could be from those original bearings I guess.
For anyone reading this that may consider doing this, my truck is a 1977 stock height 4wd F-150, 351M but a 400 would be the same. I doubt the pan could be removed in place if a 2wd. Once all the bolts are out, I still had to swing the rear of the pan towards the passenger side to clear the exhaust cross over pipe. Also, the 4 corner bolts are 5/16? bolts with 1/2" hex heads. The 16 pan side bolts are 1/4" with 7/16" heads. I used a long skinny wobble ended 1/4" drive extension and short 7/16 socket to get the several hidden behind the starter.
This "job" is not a waste, I'm still gonna check / replace bearings today, and that oil pump drive shaft. I'm curious to look also inside the oil pump. I see I used orange silicone on the pan cork gaskets and end seals long ago ... the pan came free and left the gaskets & end seals undamaged. I have not scraped the cork from the block yet ... and there will be no gasket scraping on the pan for sure ... no hammering lips flat either. I have a pan gasket set, but a thin smear of orange rtv might do it along those sides. Sure will be easier.
I had taken the oil pan off yesterday, but today I wanted to do the oil pump, bearings, and thought I'd get it running, but didn't happen. I pulled the oil pump with shaft, then I noticed M84A cast on it, that's a stock replacement pump. I thought it had a high volume pump in it. I don't know if it was reboxed Balkamp (NAPA) wrong or what ... back when I put it in thinking it was a HV pump with those new bearings in '92. These days I'd check the internet, but then ... I figured it was what the man said it was ... ie: high-volume. I doubt seriously the my machinist buddy Brownie ever even knew. I'll keep it in use, leave the HV in a box.
I did get all the bearings swapped out today.
Of the main bearings, only one main lower shell showed any copper, and it was just a itty bitty bit. I pulled the thrust bearing first, It looked might near as nice as new. The lower half #3 looked really nice, so I did only the lower half there figuring it got the real wear if any ... but #1, #2, #4, #5 each got both shells. Truthfully, the upper shell on #3 was stubborn, and I was afraid that if I tried too much to put the new upper half in, I'd mess it up some how because it held a tight grip on the sides, so I left #3 top half as is (or as was). The #3 lower shell had a death grip on the cap but I swapped it out, easy to do. Main caps are factory cast numbered 1-5 and on the same tang side.
Of the rod bearings, only one or two shells were worn any into any copper I replaced all 16 shells, but I lost track of which was which as I did so. The caps and rods were stamped by cylinder number in 1992. Of course, tang side to tang side.
... and now I know.
I had forgotten but it come back to me, was a cool damp day in November 1992 that I did this job in the back yard, and Wife reminded me that we discarded the cloths and coat I wore that day as some mud and oil had about ruined them.
I don't think that I need the high volume oil pump, or really even the ARP drive shaft now ... but I'll use the shaft anyway ... as I'm happy with the oil pressure as it is, and being standard, it certainly is what the distributor gear is designed for. I did pull the plate off to look inside (I did not take the two intermeshing gears out as they have a history together), none of that aluminum swarf to be seen in it, minimal wear too. I was really happy to find all the journals on the crank were all smooth. I'll just store that high volume pump with the 400 ... in the basement ... insurance like.
I guess that really low level noise I heard at times at idle almost has to be just the timing chain whipping, or maybe was an exhaust manifold leak,, and/or me listening too critically? Tomorrow, I'll surely get the oil pan and pump and filter & oil ... and plugs & wires in. I did get the rear main seal out of the block OK, but the new neoprene seal was stubborn. I lubed it with RuGlyde, it finally went in.
I torqued the main caps 102 torques ...and the rod bolt nuts 46 torques ... as Jeremy Clarkson said often. Oil pump bolts got 26 torques. Those 102 torques didn't come real easy on my 69+ year young back lying in the floor ... reaching up over my chest as I was doing.
Well it's done. My old '77 has new main and rod bearings at 107,003 miles now, crank looked great, better than I remembered. I did not even peal or scrape the pan gasket seals off. They were attached great to the block, perfect impressions. It did get a new rear main seal. I put 6 quarts in (4x the 15-40 Delo 400LE plus 2x the 20w50 Kendall GT-1), it is well in the safe zone. I left the still new filter on it. I did put the new oil pump shaft in, but decided the stock volume/pressure Melling M84A was good.
Getting that oil pump back in place from below at end of my fingertips overhead as I lay on the floor, dropping bolts, I needed a third hand. Without it in place, I could see the cam gear looked great, but getting that pump in place with the shaft & the pick up support bracket on the stud easily took me nearly an hour as I looked for items like folded carpeting pieces, etc. to lie on to raise me up higher off the floor so to better reach up, bolts dropped and have to find, then suddenly as if by magic, the shaft went in the hole, bolts threaded in easily, and a check with a small 5/16" open end wrench on the lower hex exposed at the oil pump to check for shaft freedom vertically and rotationally to gage gear wear, it was a nice feeling. .
Before putting the plugs in, I let the battery spin the engine over, saw near 70 psi on the oil pressure. ... then I put my new plugs in.
I did have an unexpected occurrence. After the plugs, I reconnected the ignition ... having already seen near 70 psi, I was ready to start it. It started immediately but it had a clatter, a loud clatter up high. At first, I was in shock, but I left it running as I just knew it was not a bearing. Oil psi was up near 70 at idle, and it went higher at a higher rpm, up to near 80. I got my stethoscope to listen the clatter was in the left valve cover near about over #5. Very soon, it got quieter, then was gone ... was like maybe a lifter pumped up.
My thinking is ... that maybe when replacing shells, when I had those oil passages open in the crank, air pockets formed as some normally retained oil found it's way out onto me and the floor, then when I turned it over with the key after filling oil pan, the air pockets were pushed on up near lifters and uncovered some lifter oil feeds and let one or two lifters collapse (or maybe air was pushed into some lifter or lifters?) because after actually starting it and running until warm, it sat for a couple hours and none bled back down. It has sat for weeks and not had one bleed down, not ever. It normally doesn't blead down ... but then normally it doesn't get the oil system opened up like this ... is all I can figure.
Glad I used that Permatex red assembly "sticky snot" lube on the shell's journal sides.
When doing the mains, I did loosen all 5 caps a couple turns to relax the fit. It's nice and quiet now except for an exhaust peck that has been there a long time. That noise I faintly heard before this job is gone. I found no horribly worn or hot looking rod bearings, but I did find a couple on one throw ** that were ready for a change. I did closely examine all throws, and this one was smooth.
No pics, I was too greasy to be holding a camera or phone of mine.
I wonder when engine bearings wear at their fastest rate.
Is it when new and they are their tightest fit & are still mirror finished? (new from box)
Is it after they've worn some & are a looser fit & are no longer mirror finished? (broken in)
I know that as they "break in", they wear. I know the hope is they never "touch" the journal but rather they "float" on a thing called "oil" ... but we all know that eventually, they will wear out. Smoother journals mean longer lasting bearings if the fit is right. Too loose, the oil gets pushed out and the journal contacts the bearing at point of maximum load that varies as crank rotation changes direction of push from piston. . Too tight, not enough room for the oil to work leading to heat or spun bearings or snapped rods.
I know that I accepted higher wear rates when not having my crank mirror finish ground & polished. I expect my bearing clearances are on the loose side of acceptable, but oil pressure tells me not "out of bounds". I am pleased then, it is done, and my crank is better looking than I recalled, and I'm confidant now that the bottom end will outlast me anyway.
I am equally confident that my old truck's oil pan will not rust.
When those caps are pulled off main and rod bearings, oil holes open up, oil runs out as air bubbles rise .... but first, when that oil pump is dropped, a lot of oil also falls out ... to be replaced by air. When very first started or even just turned over with disconnected ignition to pump things uyp full of oil, all those air pockets go up through the oil system, and through lifter galleries, and air is not a good "pumper upper" for lifters pushing against push rods. Even if you see pressure on a gauge, you can still have compressible air in hydraulic lifters.
Mine too has never leaked lifters down, except then.
Post job pics after cleaning the '92 bearings. Some extra scratches from where they were dropped in a box. I did number the old mains as I swapped them.
As I mentioned above, I did not replace the upper shell on that #3 main. The #1 set looks better than I recall the first set years ago. The #5 main kind of surprised me though.
I just placed those two shells ** opposite at one end, I'm pretty certain that they did come from the same rod journal as was mentioned in post #23 above. I think was #8 rod set maybe, nearest that #5 main.
If I was doing a full rebuild, a good line bore would maybe be in order. Still, it lasted 32,xxx miles in the 30 + years since the weekend drive to west Georgia and etc, with nearly no oil pressure. It did get us to Vermont and back too, and it towed a tandem axle trailer of furniture to Alabama.
I call it a WRAP. Several starts, several drives, still great oil pressure even at full temperature, my curiosity is satisfied, no lifter noises, smooth as silk. It was just a "fishing trip", I am glad it's done ... and now I know for certain it has a good oil pump drive rod & good standard volume, standard pressure pump too.
Perhaps I should have put the still in box high volume M84AHV oil pump in ... and if I ever notice a dropping of oil pressure, I will.
I still have the new gaskets, but now the drive shaft is good too. I might even just slip it in place next oil change ... before I forget the technique I used. If not doing bearings again, it'd be really easy. It wouldn't increase oil pressure, but it would provide greater volume if needed.
But then, today 06-19-2023, I read this?
Originally Posted by labdad32
I had to modify my pan to fit the HV Melling as the gears and housing are deeper than original. 1979 F250 4WD.
Looks good. I think you should be set for another 30 years.
Thank you, that'll get me to 99. Might even go longer as I see fewer long road trips in it's future.
Just an observation. recall that I did not change the oil pan cork gasket & end seal set. My pan was found loose as I removed the 20 bolts, the last two were about half way along the rails, in front of the starter in the clear, one on each side. Once removed, the pan was loose, not stuck at all. When I maneuvered it out, I found that NO gasket was stuck to it. I saw where I had used some orange rtv on the block and end grooves I guess to hold gaskets and end seals in place then. Maybe I had the cork rail gaskets on the oil pan and just applied the orange RTV along the top? I think I did have more room in 1992, more drop, I had then even dropped the track bar.
This time, after checking the still glued on cork and rubber end seals and finding no damage, I left them alone and after gently wiping them dry of oil ... I just put my oil pan back in place after a good clean. Here a few starts and short rides later, the oil pan is still dry on the outside. I guess that I should have wire brushed it (on the outside) and painted it.
05-13-2023, 08:57 PM
Oil pump bolts got 26 torques. Those 102 torques didn't come real easy on my 69+ year young back lying in the floor ... reaching up over my chest as I was doing.
Smoother journals mean longer lasting bearings if the fit is right. Too loose, the oil gets pushed out and the journal contacts the bearing at point of maximum load that varies as crank rotation changes direction of push from piston. . Too tight, not enough room for the oil to work leading to heat or spun bearings or snapped rods.
I guess that I should have wire brushed it (on the outside) and painted it. 
