Hello all,
first what I have: 64 F250 292. I am about to swap the generator to a 1 wire alternator. At the same time I want to change out the distributor. I see a few online, my question is what and how to decide on which one? Pertronix looks as though it needs an additional coil. Holly has the MSD 8383 ready to run. I like simplicity and am leaning to the msd. Any pro or cons would be helpful.

 

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IMHO, unless you have a real unique power demand, there is no reason to go to a 1 wire system... aftermarket can boost even the old series alternators to about 100 amps. Secondly, there is nothing wrong with the oem distributors unless you are going racing and going well over 6,500 rpm. MSD has for decades been known as "Missing Spark Discharge" there QA was bad enough back in the 1970's/80's when their tech was somewhat new but since their bankruptcy, company assets sold off, they bought up by Holley which is now owned by a private equity firm.... unless you are a "pro racer " (i.e. high profiled great for marketing) I would avoid like the plague.

But let me do a little "Dutch Uncle" advise on the aftermarket retro e-box conversions.........You will have to excuse me a little here, but, what is more reliable than points......certainly not the more popular & common “e-box replacement kits”. Yes you can hear people state "It runs so much smoother/better than when it had points"........in each case that an individual said that in my presence, they had very little knowledge about points and the ones they were running were- old & tired or inexpensive aftermarket replacement units or the individual (including professional mechanic) was unfamiliar with not just setting the gap to OEM specs, but setting the dwell & initial timing to what the engine likes. As far as required adjustment frequency, in my 1965 Mustang (289, 300+ hp), which has been in the family since new, I did a ground up rebuild in 1986 on it, the points last for about 10,000 miles before an adjustment is required. As what was the norm, I apply a light coating of teflon oil to the distributor points cam... up through the 70's, a small tube was provided with every set of points. This reduces rub block wear and point bounce.

But let’s look at the OEM ignition system from the early 60’s….
Original Coil Voltage: 20,000; by the end of the 60’s 40,000 volt high performance coils were common…..by the 70’s 50,000 & 60,000 volt coils were easily available & is what we have today. Did we really gain all sorts of HP/TQ with all this extra voltage…….no, what we were able to gain was stronger support (if you will excuse my terms here) for higher RPM’s- specifically in the 6,000+ range…..enough to power NASCAR engines in the 8,000 rpm range at 200+ mph!

Points were used in NASCAR up through the late 1970's, running speeds of 200mph+.........Cale Yarborough did lose a race one time because the ignition points broke. In a street application, if you look at the data very closely that is provided by these more common e-box companies, in street applications (where max power-band RPM is around 6000), when the standard dyno deviation is removed (5% standard per every dyno mfg) there is less than 1% improvement in performance. Further testing by independent aftermarket DIS (direct ignition system) manufacturers verify this through their own testing- there is little gain over an ignition points system until you reach 4500+ rpm…then you begin to see a slight sustainment of ignition delivery above what points can deliver but it doesn’t even begin to compare to what a “modern”, real e-based system can & does deliver in a real world street (and race) environment.

The other item is, in a street vehicle, if you wait to see improvement until 4000+ rpm, the race is over. Here is a link to a back to back ¼ runs- comparison of points vs a couple of e-box conversions……..no discernible difference http://www.vintageperformance.com/re...kets/track.htm

These e-box “conversion kits” have literally the same design limitations as the “conventional points”- because they are essentially using the same delivery system (rotor, cap, wires, etc.) and they are subject to the same inherent design impactors of which there are numerous….including ozone that is produced within the cap…..none of this has by miracle “disappeared” and in fact when compared in true recorded data-frame analysis, the benefit will be gone by 5800 rpm and the loss, although slightly less, parallels that of points. In racing conditions that could very well make a difference, but in a street application, you could literally change brand of fuel and see that level of improvement or degradation. Additionally, there were companies such as ProComp and others who have now dissappearred whose “High-Tech Multiple Discharge Ignition Systems” are nothing more than re-boxed low tech conversion parts purchased in bulk from other companies- mostly Chinese-based. Check out this pic http://www.pro-touring.com/showthrea...p-ignition-box of what was a “new” ProComp e-ignition system- it’s a glued together GM part stuffed into a pretty aluminum box. Considering they were sued in 2006 by MSD (and prohibited as part of a settlement from using/distributing any of their parts), I’m not surprised by anything I see with their crap….but this includes much of the e-box aftermarket industry- a lot of PR documents which physics does not play any part!

Very good quality ignition points/condensors are available and when set properly, are very reliable and provide excellent performance. There have been no less than 5 people who I personally knew were going to get e-boxes, then I had them get a good set of points/condenser, a high voltage (40k+) coil, and installed them showing them specifically how to do it......the engines ran smooth and strong. One person did end up buying an e-box, why, because he said he just got tired of not being "cool", after spending $500 for a distributor, etc (he went “Popular” high end), a year later (when he asked me to help him fix something) he admitted, it was a waste of $...it didn't run any better than after we put the points in.

While many state the positives of e-boxes (and there are certainly many positive attributes), there are conditions which reduce an e-boxes effectiveness & reliability....to start with the circuitry and handling (container vessel shipping) of it from China (which is where 90% of the more common/popular e-box company's products originate). Any aspect including temperature control, static safeguards, moisture can & will cause both detectable and undetectable damage which may not show up until after you have subjected the installed component to real world vibrations, heat, cold, moisture & grease/oil. Yes, all of these damage e-components, but the systems (based upon a variety of factors) are suppose to be prepared to endure these exposures but that is based upon many, many assumptions. Including proper handling & q/a.......given all of the 3rd party involvement in the final product, it is unrealistic (IMHO) to believe that e-boxes have an increased reliability as compared to their mechanical-based counterpart. And in terms of “Dwell Control” I won’t even go into that in detail but I will say, what the “kits” provide is a joke…..you can actually get more control over the dwell by having an understanding of how to set timing versus dwell setting with points than the most popular e-box conversion kits can provide…..which makes for a very smooth running engine- this is not just IMHO, but well known among the "higher quality" aftermarket engineers whose systems reflect this ability to "tune"!
If you need to say I got rid of my points…ok, that’s fine, but if you are really serious about actually upgrading the ignition system then do so……although it has been scrapped by the OEM’s in favor of more advanced, effective systems, there are aftermarket DIS units (yes the same as Ford used in the 90’s & developed by Porsche in the 80’s) whose cost is within reach of most buyers and will actually perform as stated.

With all this said, some will interprt this to mean I am against tech... nope. If you really want and have the need to actually upgrade I would give serious consideration to the full COP aftermarket systems- a whole new good story story!!!!

 

[QUOTE=Beechkid;20760112]IMHO, unless you have a real unique power demand, there is no reason to go to a 1 wire system... ]
still has the generator

 

[QUOTE=Caseyt985;20760162]Ahhh I see!

 

Hey Guys.. I run the Pertronix ignitor and their coil, and have for 30 years. The miles are not high, just over 11000 since install, but so far so good.
A lot of guys cuss these things, but so far so good. I carry points, condenser, and a coil, in case, and could swap along the road if it fails.
Regarding the One wire alternator...
Sorry for the thread hijack, but does any one make a one wire alt bracket for the 292.
I want something that bolts on, and could be removed, so that the truck could be returned to original condition.
My Generator works fine, but we are thinking about an old car / truck road trip. Thinking about having a one wire, and the needed brackets in my tool box, in case this 60 year old generator would fail on the trip. Maybe unhooking the original wires, and installing the one wire before we leave would be better?
Best regards,
Brad

 

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I agree completely, there is no reason for a hipo/high$$$ dist for a street engine. I've run points for years with out any issues. I have converted to Pertronix only because the lack of quality condensers, some dead right out of the box.

 

I think Power Master makes a one wire Alt. that looks like a generator and might bolt up to the old brackets.

 

Yes they do, but quite expensive. If I remember correctly about $400 at Summit

 

This might not help much but thought I'd throw it out there as a topic of conversation.

For 1964 the Standard Equipment was the Ford 30 amp - 450 watt Generator. However, if you went for any Optional Equipment with more amps above that you got an Alternator. Not too surprising, the Alternators used a different bracket and adjustment arm than the Generators.

ALTERNATORS
Ford 42 amp. - 630 watt
Ford 52 amp. - 780 watt
Leece-Neville 60 amp. - 900 watt*

*Includes ammeter and oil pressure gauge.

 

There’s a reason that nobody makes vehicles with points/condenser distributors, generators or drum brakes anymore.
Aftermarket components have come a long way since the 70s/80s.
I have a Pertronix in my 390 that has been in there for 25 years, 3-wire 10si distributor in the 63.
In my 72 460 short bed I have a recurved Duraspark with a 6al box and a 1994 Mustang alternator.

 

You are correct NO one makes them like that anymore, because they CAN be maintained and repaired ALMOST indefinitely!

Modern cars and parts ARE NOT designed to be serviced by anyone BUT the Stealership! Proprietary computer programming, non serviceable major components, with built in failure points. Disposable junk.

 

Not what you were looking for but this thread sparked a memory I should share. Fifthaveinternetgarage makes 6 volt alternators and brackets to mount them in place of the generator back through the 30's. I got a setup for a gentleman with a 40 something Ford car with a flathead V8 that he wanted to remain 6Volt for his reasons, although they have 12 volt also. It worked out great. no more hard starts due to dead batteries .

As far as distributers go, my truck came to me with a Mallory electronic dizzy that I had to replace the module once but has been fine. I have instaslled a few pertronix and never had troubles.

I also agree with Beechkid for the most part

 

I was of the opinion that if I ran FoMoCo or Motorcraft brand parts, I could not do better..... but lately I've heard their quality has gone down hill.

Where/what brand can a fella feel confident about when purchasing new points, condensers, dizzy caps, sparkplug wires?

STANDARD was a good brand, but they also have had some poor reports.....

BarnieTrk