seifferlein,

You are too funny.

If I have to share St. Patrick's day you can share Xmas.

 

But don't you see what you guys are doing? You are taking this holiday and making into something about family and happiness. It is about Jesus- that is a historical fact- are you going to dispute that too? I no longer care if you believe in Jesus as God, but how can you say that this holiday was not about him in the first place? You are destroying MY religion. The only reason that Christmas was set aside by government is because the vast majority (if not all) of the people that originally came to this country (other than the natives) were christian. Why make rules involving hinduism and budism, when noone in this country was (a hindu or budist) at those times. Yes, I believe that there will come a day when religious holidays will be seperate from government (and rightly so, since it would be the seperation of church and state.) Honestly, do you not see how Christmas is changing from being about Jesus to being about Family and other stuff? Someday, (and as you can see already) the dispute will no longer be over whether the kid born on that night was part of God, but whether this holiday was even made to celebrate that.
Why can't you people pick another day to celebrate togetherness and family, and I will celebrate it with you, but don't mess up mine. If you insist on celebrating on the same day as Christmas, at least don't call it Christmas, don't come to church (unless with an open mind willing to learn), don't use our cultural things/decorations, and don't claim to be a Christian. You are tarnishing our religion, and if you can not see that, then that is really really sad.

"Also, if you've noticed, most advertising and commercialization of Christmas refers to it as "the holidays". "
-Soooooo, what's your point? Just because Wal-Mart calls it "the holidays" it makes it less religious???????????????????????? YOU give ME a break.

This is the most offensive stuff I have ever heard in my entire life. Do you guys have respect for anyone else?

"If I have to share St. Patrick's day you can share Xmas."
- St. Patrick's day is still St. Patrick's day. Christmas is now the Holidays or considered family happy together day. If you believe that St. Patrick's day is being tarnished or changed then that is your arguement that you have to take care of.

And before anyone says it- no, I don't have a problem with any of the holidays that HAPPEN to fall near Christmas. They give their holidays their own name and don't attempt to change ours to fit what they want.

 

It's called the holidays in deferrence to the Jews.

Truth is the Christians stole my Winter solstice celebration and made it their's even though Jesus was born in the Spring.

Get off. You're way too full of yourself.

Besides it's the Catholics who by your logic should "own" Christmas not you "river dippers".

 

Seifferlein,

You need to relax my friend.

No one here has in any way denied that the Christmas holiday season began as a religious holiday, so did several other holidays that we observe in North America.

Christmas is what you make of it, nothing more, nothing less. You celebrate it any way you see fit, so will I.

You said that if we choose to celebrate a day off, the same day off as Christmas, we should call it something else - your words. How about "the holidays"? Or is that too offensive and have too much of a religious undertone? I'm pretty sure WalMart doesn't have a copy right on it. If they do, they might give us a break.

I'm also pretty sure that most people don't convert to Christianity, or pretend to be Christians, just to cash in on Christmas, and then renounce it on the 26th.

If this is the most offensive stuff you've heard in your life, I envy you. You've got off pretty soft so far.

It has everything to do with respect, you respecting my rights to do as I wish on government mandated holidays, REGARDLESS of their origin.

You sound like a little child that doesn't want to share his toy. If you don't like it, don't participate in it. Drop all the toys, forget Santa, exchanging gifts, and all the other trappings and just focus on religion. No one is interfering with your ability to do so.

I AM IN NO WAY DESTROYING YOUR RELIGION. It's up to you, as a Christian, to remember what the "holidays" are really about and to maintain their importance in your life and community.

Waxy

 

I just hope nobody of any religious persuasion tries to steal any of my unreligious days, that isn't fair to the non-superstitious amoung us.

 

So, you don't feel that you are disrespecting Christians by using this as a holiday to celebrate what you want. (if you don't realize that people cash in on christmas then you are sadly mistaken. that is what a lot of people do.) IN the other thread you said something about morals transcending to all people. Well, apparently they did not transcend to you. And if you don't believe that, then that is to say that morals are an opinion. Which makes everything an opinion and every arguement stupid because the very basis of every arguement is morals (At one point I though it was logic but apparently I was wrong).

"No one here has in any way denied that the Christmas holiday season began as a religious holiday, so did several other holidays that we observe in North America."
--yes people have, don't you read.

"How about "the holidays"?"
--Yeah that's fine but a lot of people still call it Christmas. Also, the "holidays" is plural and groups in Christmas, thus making it sound like Christmas has the same values as just "the holidays"

"If this is the most offensive stuff you've heard in your life, I envy you. You've got off pretty soft so far. "
-- Its my opinion that it is the most offensive stuff I have ever heard and was only stated to give my perspective. Since it is MY opinion it can only be compared relatively to MY experiences. Apples and oranges. Get off your high horse.

"I AM IN NO WAY DESTROYING YOUR RELIGION. It's up to you, as a Christian, to remember what the "holidays" are really about and to maintain their importance in your life and community."
-- By using the name Christmas or grouping Christmas with "the holidays" people are preventing future generations from hearing what Christians have to say. It even distorts the historical aspect of the Christmas story.

"Besides it's the Catholics who by your logic should "own" Christmas not you "river dippers"."
-- I don't get it. are you calling me a baptist, because I am not. OOOHH boy, now we have brought slander to the topic. This is only going to make people angry, and I don't care whether or not that was your intent, you still should have thought it through. Keep this garbage out.

 

Celebrating Christmas is far older than Protestantism.

 

So I'm immoral because I get together with friends and family on a holiday, and try to promote good will and peace among men? Is that logical or an opinion? Get over it.

No one cashes in on the birth of Jesus or the religious aspect of Christmas. I haven't seen anyone selling tickets to Christmas mass.

They cash in on all the things that have become associated with it, which have been created by Christian and non-Christian alike, and are cashed in on by Christian and non-Christian alike. Those things only cheapen the meaning of Christmas as a religious holiday if you allow them to.

Quote:

"How about "the holidays"?"
--Yeah that's fine but a lot of people still call it Christmas. Also, the "holidays" is plural and groups in Christmas, thus making it sound like Christmas has the same values as just "the holidays"

People call facial tissue Kleenex all the time, that doesn't make it Kleenex, nor does it decrease the value of the Kleenex brand.

Quote:

"I AM IN NO WAY DESTROYING YOUR RELIGION. It's up to you, as a Christian, to remember what the "holidays" are really about and to maintain their importance in your life and community."
-- By using the name Christmas or grouping Christmas with "the holidays" people are preventing future generations from hearing what Christians have to say. It even distorts the historical aspect of the Christmas story.

Please explain to me how this is preventing you from saying what you want to say, and give me some specific examples of it happening.

I haven't seen anyone's ability to celebrate the religious aspect of Christmas be hampered, nor have I seen it's historic aspects diminished.

Waxy

P.S. I'll climb off my high horse the minute you climb off yours.

 

erm, I am a Christian, and take NO part in the somewhat suspect commercial pharce called Christmas..

If you research all that we know about the Man Jesus, we learn he was born at tax time.... That was not in the middle of winter. (it wasn't in April either.)

Theo

 

I don't really totally agree with Seff on everything he said, but you need to watch what you say Sinjin. You're an athiest, but do I go around calling you "(your insult here")? If I can respect you, you can respect me. If not, that's when you need to leave. By saying 'you' I'm talking straight to you, I'm just keeping it in general. I gotta admit, I would really like to type my 'el~flamo' post to some replies I get, but it really doesn't do much in the end.

Also, I won't say he didn't have that coming, but be nice. Hopefully there is no offense there.

 

I gotta agree on that one. Good point.



I know I'm no moderator or whatever, but his went from a friendly debate to a pointless argument real quick. Let's show some maturity guys. Also, I wish everone an early Merry X-Mas.

Not to change the subject or anything...but do you guys know where the X came from in X-Mas? hmmm....

 

true,

I'm sorry you find a mildly colorful reference particularly insulting but point taken. I will endevour to limit my propensity for poetic license.

You might try to keep your references to priests neutral if I can request that of you.

Please don't take a tone with me though, kid. I've let a lot you've said slide on by because I couldn't think how to refute your incredibly subjective conclusions in a charitable fashion.

I'm not sure he had it coming, probably not, but you did.

 

Theo, I would be interested in knowing your version of Jesus actul birthday and you coroborating evidence. I merely stated that April date was the one I had heard tossed around the most and with some speculative evidence. You may change my mind.

 

Okay, I agree, we do all need to calm this post down a notch or twelve.

"So I'm immoral because I get together with friends and family on a holiday, and try to promote good will and peace among men? Is that logical or an opinion? Get over it."
--- NO, I am saying that it is immoral to take a holiday that is very special to others and turn it into something it isn't. It is very disrespectful.

"They cash in on all the things that have become associated with it, which have been created by Christian and non-Christian alike, and are cashed in on by Christian and non-Christian alike. Those things only cheapen the meaning of Christmas as a religious holiday if you allow them to."
-- Yes, you're right. I never said that they cashed in on the religious aspect of Christmas. They cash in on the idea of Christmas. They know that they can make a lot of money when there are a lot of people being affected. However, regular people who don't even make money on the holiday still "cash in on it" (meaning take advantage of it) by changing it into what they want it to be. Yes, they cheapen the holiday for I MYSELF only if I ALLOW them to. However, future generations are going to come into the "already cheapened" aspect of Christmas--- what about them.


"People call facial tissue Kleenex all the time, that doesn't make it Kleenex, nor does it decrease the value of the Kleenex brand."
--- I don't feel that that is a legitamate comparison, but I get what you are saying. What about all of the people who are born out of Christianity and want to find out about it, but get all of this cheapened modified religion?


"Please explain to me how this is preventing you from saying what you want to say, and give me some specific examples of it happening."
-- It does not prevent me from saying what I want to say, but christians can not always reach out to non-christians before their views about christianity have already been distorted. I speak mainly of people who aren't born into Christ. The first thing they are going to hear about (likely) is this modified Christmas celebration- what are they going to think?

"I haven't seen anyone's ability to celebrate the religious aspect of Christmas be hampered, nor have I seen it's historic aspects diminished."
-- Well, there are PLENTY of people who honestly dispute the historical aspects of Christmas (and Jesus in general). When other generations come along, all of these people will pass the distorted Jesus story to them. I am not saying that they should in any way promote Jesus, but that they shouldn't change the HISTORICAL FACT that Jesus is the Christmas story. This way people's minds are open to believe what they want and are not biased based on something untrue.

The only thing I ask for is a little respect for christians. Please don't take religious holidays that millions of people put absolute strong faith into and turn them into something else. Yes, this goes likewise for myself. I don't take other's holidays and turn them into something they aren't.

 

How does one know that the story of Christ they have been born into isn't a bit distorted after a few thousand years?