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My new to me 2002 f350 w/ZF6 and manual transfer case came with a legacy issue: hard to get into R&1, grinds into 2. I have driven cross country and some local to the tune of 4200 miles. Aside from the 1-3 shifting (which is hard on the rig on hill starts), there is no clutch slipping, no gear meshing noise, or anything. I have alluded to this in a couple of recent posts, but those were related to "what could it be".
Initially I was going to take the ZF in my e99 and swap it into the 2002 (both 7.3s and confirmed in an earlier post these should interchange without probs). My work had other plans and I couldn't be left alone for the 2-3 days straight that I figure I need to pull this stunt off. Coupled with this is that the entire truck is nearly rust free....except for the oil pan. I knew when I saw it that that would have to be addressed sometime in the near future. Adding that to the mix (which makes sense to address if/when one is contemplating removing the transmission) now puts me in having someone do this work. I have identified a capable local diesel shop who has experience in both the ZF and the 7.3 oil pan swap.
After much discussion, contemplation, and input from local "sidewalk supervisors", my shifting issues are most likely 2-fold: bent fork for R&1 and a syncro issue for 2nd. The bent fork was a no brainer. But it is still up in the air whether it would address the 2nd gear grinding. 8/10 times on starting in N and shifting into 2nd there will be a grinding or some other equally bad sounds. 10/10 times on shifting into 2nd once the truck is moving is a grind. Np probs getting into R,1,2 when the truck is not running.
The plan is to remove the transmission and at a minimum replace the fork, swap in the bronze oil bushing (thanx SkySkiJason!), and maybe the release bearing - that is if the inspection suggests that is all that is needed. At 126k the clutch overall might still be in pretty good shape. But if it isnt, I have a new SouthBend all ready to go. Then there is the transmission...
That will get opened and inspected. The dude who will do the work suggested at a minimum a bearing and syncro kit. I learned that this is an all or nothing transmission. If you want to replace one thing, you better be prepared to replace a bunch of other things because the way it is assembled.
But what about anything else? Since the bazooka is loaded, I may as well err on the side of caution. Aside from the 2nd gear grind, there is nothing to suggest the transmission needs attention. I assume things like snap rings and other consumables will be handled under "shop supplies". What with shipping lead times and other availability issues, I would hate to have this thing unavailable for another week or two while waiting for something.
Could also be bent clutch release fork causeling clutch to not release all the way. It's common for them to bend or crack. They have came out with updated ones since then to prevent it. Could also be air in the hydraulics. Or like you said internal.
I've seen a measurement somewhere where you take slave cylinder off and measure from where eit mount to the release form to tell if it's bent but don't remember it right off the top of my head.
I've seen a measurement somewhere where you take slave cylinder off and measure from where eit mount to the release form to tell if it's bent but don't remember it right off the top of my head.
I had 2 5/8" distance to the fork, which I think is normal. Also, I ran a borescope in there and looked around. Nothing jumped off the page as being broken, nor was it easy to tell if all was in order either.
After much discussion, contemplation, and input from local "sidewalk supervisors", my shifting issues are most likely 2-fold: bent fork for R&1 and a syncro issue for 2nd. The bent fork was a no brainer. But it is still up in the air whether it would address the 2nd gear grinding. 8/10 times on starting in N and shifting into 2nd there will be a grinding or some other equally bad sounds. 10/10 times on shifting into 2nd once the truck is moving is a grind. Np probs getting into R,1,2 when the truck is not running.
Any suggestions?
This is always a clutch that will not disengage. I've never seen it be any other thing. Grinding when engine is running vs smooth operation when nothing is spinning is always a clutch failing to fully disengage for whatever reason.
Originally Posted by 00t444e
Use different fluid also, they don't shift that well with ATF in them, use Pennzoil Syncromesh or Redline MT90.
I put in Redline MTL and there was one issue that popped up for me and that was it now tends to pop out of 4th gear every now and then if I don't MAKE SURE that it is correctly engaged. It's a ZF factory rebuilt transmission and I'm suspicious that the 4th gear set is marginal and the superior lubricating qualities of MTL exaggerate the situation. I don't plan on going back to ATF because I tow heavy and I want to give it all the help it can get. Every time I drained the ATF, it would look like it was trying to get burned up under the load. Transfer case was even worse. Came out charcoal tinted red. So far so good now, with the MTL.
I ran a few different fluids (Amsoil, Redline MTL, etc) until I tried Redline High Temp ATF 30204. Shifting is smooth cold or hot and there is absolutely no gear rollover. I use my truck for towing heavy 90% of the time.
What it comes down to is a product that works well in/on one truck may not in/on another truck said to be mechanically identical.
Before I drove the red truck back from where I bought it, I sought out a transmission shop to see if I could get it looked at. I found an older guy who used to do manual trans back in the day. He told me it would take him 6 weeks to get to it, plus I would have to pony up a crate of lobsters! I didn't have that type of time. But he said something quite interesting. He pointed out folks would use 90 weight gear oil instead of ATF believing it to be better than what the OEM specifies. He said the fibrous portion of the synchros would not respond favorably and would cause the type of grinding issues I have with 2nd. I did a quick check, but it looked (and smelled) to be ATF.
I am open to exploring fluid options as mentioned in various posts. Question is: what about super cold weather? Anything seem to rise above the others in this regard?
I tried the Redline MTL after being disappointed with Amsoil and other ATF products. The MTL was too "notchy" for my tastes, especially when the truck was cold. It just felt like I was putting more effort into grabbing a gear than what I should be. Kind of difficult to explain really.
I have a friend that works at ZF Transmission in Gray Court SC and after talking to him, searching the interwebs a great deal and calling Redline, I settled on the Redline High Temp ATF. As I understand it, the ATF is a blend of ATF and gear oil. So, it gives me the best of both worlds between ATF and a gear oil, at least in my opinion. See description below from the Redline site below.
I checked the fluid after ~15,000 heavy towing miles and the fluid looked and smelled new. For my application and ZF6, this is absolutely the right product.
Before I drove the red truck back from where I bought it, I sought out a transmission shop to see if I could get it looked at. I found an older guy who used to do manual trans back in the day. He told me it would take him 6 weeks to get to it, plus I would have to pony up a crate of lobsters! I didn't have that type of time. But he said something quite interesting. He pointed out folks would use 90 weight gear oil instead of ATF believing it to be better than what the OEM specifies. He said the fibrous portion of the synchros would not respond favorably and would cause the type of grinding issues I have with 2nd. I did a quick check, but it looked (and smelled) to be ATF.
I am open to exploring fluid options as mentioned in various posts. Question is: what about super cold weather? Anything seem to rise above the others in this regard?
You can't use any type of 90 weight gear oil, modern GL5 gear oils have additives in them that can make the syncro rings too slippery to engage correctly which causes grinding. You can use GL4 or gear oil like MT90 that is made for manual transmissions, I run it in mine and it shifts great even when cold, far better than any ATF I have used.
You can't use any type of 90 weight gear oil, modern GL5 gear oils have additives in them that can make the syncro rings too slippery to engage correctly which causes grinding. You can use GL4 or gear oil like MT90 that is made for manual transmissions, I run it in mine and it shifts great even when cold, far better than any ATF I have used.
The mobil 1 synthetic atf allowed perfect shifts all winter plowing snow in negative *F temps
I tried the Redline MTL after being disappointed with Amsoil and other ATF products. The MTL was too "notchy" for my tastes, especially when the truck was cold. It just felt like I was putting more effort into grabbing a gear than what I should be. Kind of difficult to explain really.
I have a friend that works at ZF Transmission in Gray Court SC and after talking to him, searching the interwebs a great deal and calling Redline, I settled on the Redline High Temp ATF. As I understand it, the ATF is a blend of ATF and gear oil. So, it gives me the best of both worlds between ATF and a gear oil, at least in my opinion. See description below from the Redline site below.
I checked the fluid after ~15,000 heavy towing miles and the fluid looked and smelled new. For my application and ZF6, this is absolutely the right product.
Thank you for reminding me of this product. I used to carry it when I still ran the VW repair shop. I used it in Vanagon automatics with excellent performance. Small engine, small transmission, bread box shaped vehicle, loaded down with people, cabinets in the Westfalias, camping gear, food, clothing, you name it, and they were trying to keep up with that 75 mph traffic. All that added up to a very hard working engine/transmission combination. A lot of them also had AC installed for even more heat generated.
What I learned from Redline is MT90 was formulated specifically for transmissions requiring a GL4 oil and also was designed with a hypoid gear differential enclosed within the same housing. For that reason I chose to go with MTL which is a GL4 type oil but doesn't have the hypoid gear support in the formula. Basically the only difference between MTL and MT-90 is viscosity, according to their website. But this high temperature ATF has me considering this now instead of the MTL that I am currently using. Too soon for me to need to change it all out again, I only use the truck for pulling the RV, so it's MAYBE 6000 miles a year. The High Temp ATF looks to me to be closer to what Ford and ZF had originally designed the transmission to run with in the first place. I will remember that next time it's time to buy some more.
I also have the red line high temp atf in mine since I swapped trans. Only got about 2000 miles on it so far but I'm happy with it. Shifts good no matter what temp it's at. Haven't ran it in cold weather yet but it doesn't get to cold in NC.
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So far so good now, with the MTL.
