Future Diesel Engines
Posting Guru
Joined: Apr 2000
Posts: 1,428
Likes: 3
From: Summit, NJ
Speaking of Biodiesel... friends of mine are working to develop some. Their experimental car is an 84 VW diesel rabbit. I can't recall the ingredients, but they have it working in a model aircraft diesel engine (I guess they are a ways off... but it's not too difficult to make).
Elder User
Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 987
Likes: 3
From: Bass Lake, CA
there are quite a few websites that detail biodiesel production, in fact, i think the figures were 5% of all d/f in europe is, or will be shortly B/D....i think france(?) is already at that percentage, or higher...but, with all the farmers on welfare these days, and how much money we give to the ones that are still operating to keep them competitive with foreign produce, this would be an excellent cash-crop for them! not to mention the foreign oil problem...
Post Fiend
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 10,323
Likes: 2
From: Montana Territory
The entire global economy would collapse, millions of people would be out of work, land prices would skyrocket, and no actual food value would be attained from it.
No farmer would want to grow food value crops if he could make real money growing plants that make biodiesel.
In the western United States, where we are not lucky enough to get the rain required to grow a lot of crops, we irrigate, if these "grapeseed" plants require any irrigation at all, then it will be too much, watersheds will become polluted, and destroyed.
This Biodiesel sounds like something ELF would be promoting.
Biodiesel is not safe enough to make in your basement either, it requires some heavy duty chemicals.
More later, its dinner time.
No farmer would want to grow food value crops if he could make real money growing plants that make biodiesel.
In the western United States, where we are not lucky enough to get the rain required to grow a lot of crops, we irrigate, if these "grapeseed" plants require any irrigation at all, then it will be too much, watersheds will become polluted, and destroyed.
This Biodiesel sounds like something ELF would be promoting.
Biodiesel is not safe enough to make in your basement either, it requires some heavy duty chemicals.
More later, its dinner time.
Postmaster
Joined: Feb 2002
Posts: 3,496
Likes: 0
From: Calgary Canada
It will never be cheap, and it will never be a feasible alternative.
Mattsbox99 has given you the major reasons why. It's simply not environmentally or economically viable on a large scale.
Waxy
Mattsbox99 has given you the major reasons why. It's simply not environmentally or economically viable on a large scale.
Waxy
Post Fiend
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 10,323
Likes: 2
From: Montana Territory
Thanks Waxy, I am sure that most people will see the light sometime. Its cloudy out there.
I had to adapt my reasons from more than a few posts and conversations, but I think it gets the point across.
The only way that I support diesel engines is in the sub compact cars, they will be the only beneficiaries of diesel power, as much as 80 MPG.
Can you imagine how itchy the trigger fingers of the middle easterners would be if we took away their only source of income ?(middle eastern oil makes poor diesel fuel, there are a few fields that produce high quality diesel, the north sea and alaska.)
I had to adapt my reasons from more than a few posts and conversations, but I think it gets the point across.
The only way that I support diesel engines is in the sub compact cars, they will be the only beneficiaries of diesel power, as much as 80 MPG.
Can you imagine how itchy the trigger fingers of the middle easterners would be if we took away their only source of income ?(middle eastern oil makes poor diesel fuel, there are a few fields that produce high quality diesel, the north sea and alaska.)
Posting Guru
Joined: Jul 2003
Posts: 1,750
Likes: 0
From: Lenexa, KS
I don't think there's enough farm land in the United States to grow the crops needed to produce bio-diesel in amounts that would satisfy our consumption. Even if the vehicles doubled or tripled their mileage using it. Considering the acreage to gallon ratio of producing food grade oils, it just doesn't seem feasible. As our population grows, the demands on food farming keep increasing as well.
Posting Guru
Joined: May 2003
Posts: 1,437
Likes: 0
From: Oak Harbor WA
Originally posted by mattsbox99
Everybody complains that the price of a new vehicle is so high. Then there was the thread about going back to the basics, and now we want diesels.
The diesel engine increases the price of the vehicle. So much in fact that it would take an amount of time greater than the life of the vehicle in regards to fuel savings.
Diesel engines are more costly to repair, and turbos require special use. There are barely enough diesel mechanics to work on the trucks that we have now, imagine what it would be like to have that many more engines on the road.
Right now we have low grade, high sulphur diesel fuel on the market, and its cheap enough to keep so many farmers and ranchers and fledgling trucking companies in business. If we start building light car and truck diesels, we are going to need higher grade, low sulphur diesel fuel, and that is expensive. So much in fact that our diesel would go from $.90 per gallon (nontax) to well over $2 per gallon. I don't think that there is a significant market for a full scale production V6/V8/I5-6 diesel engine in light duty trucks, the trucks can't handle that kind of towing to begin with, and when you got all done you would have the weight and ride of a 3/4 ton or 1 ton truck anyway, and now the cost would be the same.
Its just plain not feasible, Ford, GM, and Dodge all know this.
Everybody complains that the price of a new vehicle is so high. Then there was the thread about going back to the basics, and now we want diesels.
The diesel engine increases the price of the vehicle. So much in fact that it would take an amount of time greater than the life of the vehicle in regards to fuel savings.
Diesel engines are more costly to repair, and turbos require special use. There are barely enough diesel mechanics to work on the trucks that we have now, imagine what it would be like to have that many more engines on the road.
Right now we have low grade, high sulphur diesel fuel on the market, and its cheap enough to keep so many farmers and ranchers and fledgling trucking companies in business. If we start building light car and truck diesels, we are going to need higher grade, low sulphur diesel fuel, and that is expensive. So much in fact that our diesel would go from $.90 per gallon (nontax) to well over $2 per gallon. I don't think that there is a significant market for a full scale production V6/V8/I5-6 diesel engine in light duty trucks, the trucks can't handle that kind of towing to begin with, and when you got all done you would have the weight and ride of a 3/4 ton or 1 ton truck anyway, and now the cost would be the same.
Its just plain not feasible, Ford, GM, and Dodge all know this.
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Post Fiend
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 10,323
Likes: 2
From: Montana Territory
Originally posted by jskufan
I don't think there's enough farm land in the United States to grow the crops needed to produce bio-diesel in amounts that would satisfy our consumption. Even if the vehicles doubled or tripled their mileage using it. Considering the acreage to gallon ratio of producing food grade oils, it just doesn't seem feasible. As our population grows, the demands on food farming keep increasing as well.
I don't think there's enough farm land in the United States to grow the crops needed to produce bio-diesel in amounts that would satisfy our consumption. Even if the vehicles doubled or tripled their mileage using it. Considering the acreage to gallon ratio of producing food grade oils, it just doesn't seem feasible. As our population grows, the demands on food farming keep increasing as well.
Not to mention that we can only grow crops in most areas from the end of may to august, which would make winter even colder.
Again, the idea is nice, but its far to complicated, you might be able to tell that I have thought about this quite a bit.
Posting Guru
Joined: May 2003
Posts: 1,011
Likes: 0
From: South Dakota
http://www.afdc.doe.gov/altfuel/bio_general.html
I checked out this site and to me it looks like biodiesel is going to be quite feasible to produce. At least what I read gave me a good impression. As far as recovering costs of intial purchase and repairs, it is the same as any other vehicle purchase. As long as you know the costs going in and it is what you want go for it.
I checked out this site and to me it looks like biodiesel is going to be quite feasible to produce. At least what I read gave me a good impression. As far as recovering costs of intial purchase and repairs, it is the same as any other vehicle purchase. As long as you know the costs going in and it is what you want go for it.
The Pacifier
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 8,245
Likes: 7
From: Cloverdale, BC
People here are saying that European diesel is "higher grade".
IT IS NOT.
Here's why. The European diesel is "technically" higher grade because of the distillation process. What happens with distillation? Naturally, higher grade stuff, but your energy potency, or BTU's suffer. North American diesel has MORE BTU's per gallon than European diesel.
The benefit of North American diesel is you will get more power out of your engine. Ask ANY trucker what fuel he or she prefers to run. Summer or winter. The winter fuel is more refined than summer fuel. And European fuel is more refined than our winter fuel.
The benefit of European diesel is it is CLEANER burning. If we had that fuel over here, we would be cleanly burning cleaner fuel, but we would be burning MORE of it because of the fewer BTU's.
IT IS NOT.
Here's why. The European diesel is "technically" higher grade because of the distillation process. What happens with distillation? Naturally, higher grade stuff, but your energy potency, or BTU's suffer. North American diesel has MORE BTU's per gallon than European diesel.
The benefit of North American diesel is you will get more power out of your engine. Ask ANY trucker what fuel he or she prefers to run. Summer or winter. The winter fuel is more refined than summer fuel. And European fuel is more refined than our winter fuel.
The benefit of European diesel is it is CLEANER burning. If we had that fuel over here, we would be cleanly burning cleaner fuel, but we would be burning MORE of it because of the fewer BTU's.
Senior User
Joined: Sep 2003
Posts: 154
Likes: 0
From: NC
I'm glad you brought that up bigrigfixer. Most people don't understand or don't know that there is a difference in diesel fuel between the summer and winter seasons. Back in the day you would have to use alcohol or gasoline to keep your diesel fuel from gelling up over night. Now-a-days you don't have to worry. I wonder if the biodiesel has difference in its chemical make up during the summer and winter months.
-Landon
-Landon
The Pacifier
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 8,245
Likes: 7
From: Cloverdale, BC
Biodiesel:
From the limited literature I have read on the subject, I gathered that the fuel tanks and fuel lines would be heated to prevent gelling. Keep in mind I have only read ONE article on biodiesel, so I am not an expert on biodiesel.
As for the lack of diesel mechanics, every mechanic I know (automotive, heavy duty, heavy truck or otherwise) has a basic understanding of how a diesel engine works, so there will not be a shortage. But, according to the given scenario, there would be a shortage of highly skilled, well versed, exceptionally proficient diesel mechanics. But the shortage would only be "short term." I would guess less than 2 years.
From the limited literature I have read on the subject, I gathered that the fuel tanks and fuel lines would be heated to prevent gelling. Keep in mind I have only read ONE article on biodiesel, so I am not an expert on biodiesel.
As for the lack of diesel mechanics, every mechanic I know (automotive, heavy duty, heavy truck or otherwise) has a basic understanding of how a diesel engine works, so there will not be a shortage. But, according to the given scenario, there would be a shortage of highly skilled, well versed, exceptionally proficient diesel mechanics. But the shortage would only be "short term." I would guess less than 2 years.
The Pacifier
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 8,245
Likes: 7
From: Cloverdale, BC
It does. Hence, the reason diesels are so popular in Europe. Last I heard, the price for either powertrain was comparable, so the deciding factor was the efficiency. Also, the price for the two fuels were close to the same, and so, the deciding factor in that one is efficiency.
An instructor I had in trade school told us about a time he was in Europe, and he used a few rental cars over there. He could not tell any difference in the performance between diesel and gas powered cars, but the diesel went farther on the same sized full tank.
An instructor I had in trade school told us about a time he was in Europe, and he used a few rental cars over there. He could not tell any difference in the performance between diesel and gas powered cars, but the diesel went farther on the same sized full tank.