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One of the reasons that alt energy/EVs/etc are appealing to me is because my other car is a Super Duty. We live on a 50 acre farm out in the middle of nowhere and have to go 35+ miles just to get to the grocery store. Our Costco trips for are over 90 miles one way. So when I go somewhere, it means long distances or I'm hauling something heavy and in a Super Duty, I'm not getting great MPG. So yeah, I'm extremely interested in a vehicle that will get me good mileage for those times when we are just going to town and not needing to haul anything.
We are currently building a shop that will hold solar panels for us, as we want to be as self sufficient as possible, due to the fact that our remoteness generally makes us the last in line when things like weather cause power outages. EV seems like it would be a natural fit for us. The real concern there is the range. I believe the final EPA ranges on the Lightning are between 230-320 miles on a charge. 300 is right at the bottom of the minimum range for us due to the fact that temperature and weather affect range and we do get very cold temps where we live. The range would absolutely be acceptable for the trips that we need to make to the nearest town (grocery store, dr's visits, etc), but for visiting friends, Costco visits, etc that take us to the next major town, it's iffy. For us, 400-500 miles would be the sweet spot, as that would allow for the derate of range that happens in extreme temperatures while still giving us the ability to run errands above straight to costco and back. However, the only EV that has that kind of range (that I know about) is the Lucid Air Sedan and we worry about having the room necessary to fit the supplies we buy.
If Ford ever gets to that kind of range, I would probably drop the money on one, especially when you look at the things like the Ford Intelligent Backup that you can get as an option. Imagine how handy that would be out on the property for multiple reasons. What if they could put that on a Super Duty and/or make super duty a hybrid? However, I can only imagine what that would do to the cost of an already expensive vehicle, so I'm going off into pipe dream land now.
We are in a similar situation, but on a smaller scale.
We live in the country in north GA and have a 20 mile one way trip to town. This town has a population of 4,500 people, so we are lucky to have 2 groceries stores and a Home Depot. We stopped going to Costco/Sam's Club in the nearest small city because the journey would take us all day. We are looking forward to an EV that is affordable, reliable and able to get us to town and back. Although, we are really looking forward to an EV that is affordable and able get us to my brothers property and back in TN which is a 400 mile round trip. The Lucid EV is capable of doing this, but waaaaaay out of our price range.
The rest of our family is 1,000 or 2,500 miles away and we will keep at least one fuel efficient ICE/hybrid vehicle for those journeys. We usually go out west once every couple of years, but it has been 5 times in the past 4 years and twice in 2022.
That sounds really nice that you are looking to be self-sufficient and I hope it works out for you.
How anyone can think driving that kind of distance would be faster than flying needs to go back to school and focus on physics. Now y'all might be thinking of the time it takes to book a flight on any of the airlines available, Delta, Southwest etc.... but y'all are forgetting about charter flights. If it's that important to get there in a hurry you can go to any airport and charter your own flight to just about any where in the world.
If the question was, "You only have two options of travel, ICE or electric, what would you take on that long drive"? The obvious answer is the ICE powered vehicle.
I was being nice and my answers remain the same. Just because they aren't to your liking does not invalidate them so mind your own business.
He did mind his business. You challenged a member for his opinions to the point of calling him a troll and Sous challenged you for your rudeness. It's no secret that you're all in with the EV market and that's fine but it's fair to ask questions and have concerns.
I have questions and concerns and in my opinion, the car builders are pushing out a product before the infrastructure is fully capable of handling the load and before the industry is able / willing to make the purchase prices comparable. I always thought that the tail shouldn't wag the dog but I'm learning that in this case, it's OK.
the car builders are pushing out a product before the infrastructure is fully capable of handling the load and before the industry is able / willing to make the purchase prices comparable. I always thought that the tail shouldn't wag the dog but I'm learning that in this case, it's OK.
I think you just summed up my thoughts exactly. I would make the comparison to cell phones. Not too long ago, cell phones were a luxury item not owned by many but the affluent. There is absolutely no doubt that cell phones have increased the safety, and visibility, to the world around them, but their adoption did not come from these benefits. The adoption came by companies making investments on the risk that this was something that the masses would want, by providing and building up infrastructure to support that bet, and by improving the technology/cost to where cell phones became something that all aspects of society could/would be able to pay for.
What did not happen was a targeted campaign to demonize land lines, the raising of land line pricing to try and force a swap, or doing the aforementioned when the only place that had cell towers to support them were large urban locations. Subsidies for cell phones were provided by the manufacturers to support adoption by the populace, not by the government trying to manipulate the market (and I absolutely conceded that the government subsidizes petroleum as well, but something I'm also against). I consider myself above average when it comes to purchasing power which makes ev's a possibility for me, but also understand that this technology is still in its infancy and that the vast majority of people are not in the same position. Combine with that the variables of rural living, infrastructure to support, temperature/environmental conditions affecting range, etc, I don't see this as an adoptable tech for most Americans. However, I see hope that it will go the way of the cell phone.
However, we are absolutely ignoring other alternate methods of transportation in favor of pure EV. Things like hydrogen fuel cells, LNG/LNP augmented vehicles, biodiesel/synthetic gasoline, etc are only on the fringes right now, with EV being the primary push. Additionally, we are banking on technologies where everything from the capturing of power (solar panels) to the products needed to storage it (batteries, rare earth minerals) are things that we are relying on outside entities to provide for us. Why? Why not have the blu-ray vs hd-dvd play out with alternative energy sources? Right now, the heavy weights (including the government) are pushing EV primarily while all but ignoring (in my eyes) some of the others. If we are going to push, truly push, for alternatives to petrol, then all things should be on the table.
Last edited by rednex; Jul 28, 2022 at 02:53 PM.
Reason: editing spelling errors
How anyone can think driving that kind of distance would be faster than flying needs to go back to school and focus on physics. Now y'all might be thinking of the time it takes to book a flight on any of the airlines available, Delta, Southwest etc.... but y'all are forgetting about charter flights. If it's that important to get there in a hurry you can go to any airport and charter your own flight to just about any where in the world.
You might want to consider pausing engagement in a conversation if your best comeback is to charter a private flight for a family trip.
Good illustration. Even if that family member is 300 miles away, a smart person is going to take the combustion engine.
I was looking at some of the hybrid offerings out for 2022 and a few of them are in the low to mid 40 MPG range in a smaller SUV. We currently have a 2016 Escape that we use for our running around and short trips that are below 400 miles one way and it is exciting to think about a hybrid that offers 40+ MPG in a smaller SUV configuration.
Tom has a KIA EV6 and that EV looks great and is seemingly at the forefront of average citizen technology. I am looking forward to where the EV market leads us as a society, but feel that our next vehicle will be a hybrid unless there is a dramatic breakthrough in battery range and charging time in the near future.
Time will tell and nothing is off the table at this point as I have no idea what tomorrow will bring.
I wouldn't want to mislead people by conflating hybrid with electric vehicle (EV). The hybrid is an internal combustion engine, plus. The "plus" intends to improve fuel economy, with trade-offs.
Hybrids increase vehicle complexity, which means increased fragility. Certainly while things are breaking down, one can understand why many folks prefer simplicity. Also, more on-board battery power facilitates the new 24/7 surveillance panopticon. I also have this concern about EVs. I understand that people who get paid by the government are going to be big advocates. But I've personally witnessed how ubiquitous surveillance can be used to harass and harm innocent people, covertly and overtly. It's often for political or financial reasons. So while I don't think any technology is inherently bad, it's usually the implementation I don't like. I'm hoping to see continued improvement, with less control. Make it more simple. Remove the surveillance. And, of course, I'd like to have the choice to abstain from everyone else's wonderful new plan for me. I prefer to make up my own mind rather than being led.
By no means was my post intending to confuse and I would hope that anyone looking to purchase or learn about an EV would know the difference.
One important fact is Nickle. There is virtually no Nickle in the USA. The Battery is designed for more available power but also lower Voltages than Tesla's.
No nickel in the USA? This is Not true, we have plenty of nickel, now, the question is will the gov allow it to be mined? The fed just shut down a Big nickel mine, Trump externed their lease, this admin said, no. We don't have the the biggest supply, but we have plenty. Interestingly enough-the US nickel coin, is worth more than a nickel, melt value. Our nickels are 75%copper25% nickel, as of 25 aug 2022:Using the latest metal prices and the specifications above, these are the numbers required to calculate melt value:
$3.6666 = copper price / pound on Aug 25, 2022. .75 = copper % $9.6850 = nickel price / pound on Aug 25, 2022. .25 = nickel % 5.00 = total weight in grams .00220462262 = pound/gram conversion factor (see note directly below)
The CME uses pounds to price these metals, that means we need to multiply the metal price by .00220462262 to make the conversion to grams. 1. Calculate 75% copper value :
(3.6666 × .00220462262 × 5.00 × .75) = $0.030312
2. Calculate 25% nickel value :
(9.6850 × .00220462262 × 5.00 × .25) = $0.0266893 3. Add the two together :
$0.0303125 + $0.0266893 = $0.0570018
$0.0570018 is the melt value for the 1946-2014 nickel on August 25, 2022. In short, they cost more to coin/distribute than face value. It may be a good time for you to have a Nickel jar, save those nickels!!
Some of the conversation revolves around the complexity of an EV vs Hybrid vs ICE, as one is more complex than the others it is assumed the more complex system is more likely to "break down". I agree, in theory this is true, but in Real Life, not so much. The assumption in the theory is all three are built to the same standard and are maintained to the same standard. We All Know some brands, some mfg's, even different plants owned by a given mfg, build to a different standard, or at least the product they mfg isn't as well made as others. I'm sure no one on this board would even begin to argue that a Hugo car should have lasted longer than a Rolls, even though the Rolls was MUCH more complicated. My guess is, as more and more EVs come to market, it won't take long before, some are ID'd by consumers as less reliable than others, and in some cases, I'm guessing, Much less reliable than others! Just like ICE and/or Hybrids some will be far better than others. In short a "complicated Hybrid, may very well (and most likely will be) far more reliable than the XYZ EV. Toyota is bringing a very interesting hybrid to market 2025 (with Solid State Batteries), my guess (we have a couple of years before this happens) is Toyota is not about to lower their build quality, the new hybrid will last and last. I guess we will all see, but if history is any teacher, they'll be very reliable, and will get Huge MPG.
Since reading about solid state batteries and Toyota's involvement in the development a couple months ago on the InsideEV website, I have been very curious to see what is around the corner.
Speaking of batteries, this invoice for a Chevy Bolt battery replacement was posted the other day in another FTE sub-forum. I had not replied to the post as I was not sure of the legitimacy and was too lazy to research it myself. Some subsequent posts have provided evidence to the legitimacy and while I am at a loss for words, I cannot say I am surprised.
Dealership prices are insane for their sales and even more so for their parts and service departments.
Hopefully, with the adaptation of solid state batteries in the near future, technology will allow for less mass, more range and cheaper service at longer intervals.
Since reading about solid state batteries and Toyota's involvement in the development a couple months ago on the InsideEV website…
Hopefully, with the adaptation of solid state batteries in the near future, technology will allow for less mass, more range and cheaper service at longer intervals.
Until we see a working version in an EV that the average car buyer can buy, I will take a cautiously skeptical stance. We’ve been hearing “hopefully development beyond lithium based batteries will come a long shortly” since the 90s. I drank the hopium then when I was getting trained as a manufacturing engineer specializing in SPC and all the colored belts and such, the next breeakthrough promising more range, shorter charge time, safer chemistry, more recyclable composition, etc was always “just a few years away”.
the Toyota’s solid state battery for 2025 hybrid is a good example. Right now Toyota can’t even make enough ICE cars because their previously clockwork like supply chain in China is getting rammed from every direction. Typically their non plug in hybrids have a very small battery for regeneration and low speed acceleration. Great application no doubt, but that also means there is capacity limitation on this technology for the time being. In fact if you read the actual quotes it’s far less rosy than what may like to hope.
In the interview, Gill Pratt, Toyota's chief scientist and head of the Toyota Research Institute, said that Toyota is aiming to "commercialize" its solid-state batteries in the first half of this decade. Surprisingly, Pratt said that the first Toyotas to receive the new batteries will actually be hybrids instead of fully electric vehicles.
Pratt outlined a couple of reasons why Toyota intends to debut solid-state batteries in hybrids. Solid-state batteries are, at the moment, more expensive to produce, he said, and since hybrids have smaller battery packs than EVs, implementing them in hybrids first will reduce the cost. The other challenge facing solid-state batteries currently is battery life, with repeated charging taking a toll on early prototype batteries. In a hybrid, the smaller battery is charged and recharged far more often, and Pratt suggested that the increased amount of cycling for the batteries will make hybrids a good test bed for the new technology.
what that tells us is that
1: it is yet to be commerciallly viable, 2025 is a theorized target to debut it in a production car that could be as far our as 2027MY depending on how fluid MY definition gets
2: it won’t be able to replace lithium based batteries for longer range pure EVs for quite some time.
I have kept in touch with my material science buddies over the years and every promising chemistry that showed tremendous initial potential ended up being prohibitively expensive to produce, dangerous when scaled up, or didn’t scale up period.
