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I stopped by my local transmission shop today. He has built a few trans for me over the years and seems to do good work. As soon as he walked outside to listen to the truck he said the torque converter is bad and that he has done a ton of them. This was without me mentioning anything about what I suspected.
As soon as I mentioned my programmer and turbo upgrade he suggested letting him beef up the trans while it was out, pump, valve body, input shaft along with a HD torque converter and beefier flex plate.
My only issue is that he gets his “HD” components from Sun Coast and their triple disc HD torque converters are 1500-1700$ Alone. So I’m currently looking at other options. I don’t want to skimp on my trans but if I can do it for less and maintain the quality, why not.
Low stall is good for Average Joe and even better for Average Joe who tows a lot!
7.3 has too high stall speed from the factory,even Mark K has said so.Factory stall is somewhere around 2000 rpm or more,lowering stall to match 1600rpm torque peak has many benewits.
Which aftermarket flexplates are prone to failure?
Were they billet or non billet?
If non billet, were they advertised as having a thicker center section?
Was the type of steel or steel alloy identified?
Here is brief and incomplete sampling of aftermarket flexplate brands, many of which appear to be billet, listed in no particular order of preference or prevalence on the market:
ATP
ATS
BD Diesel
BD Power
B&M
Dieselsite
Hughes
PATC
Precision Industries
PRW Industries
Sun Coast
The list above is by no means comprehensive. Some of the brands above offer more than one model of flexplate for the same application. Some of the brands above may merely be private labels or resellers of other brands.
But the point, and the question, is this...
If certain aftermarket flex plates are prone to failure, we would do well to try and figure out which exact aftermarket flex plates are being painted with that brush, not only to see which brand or brands to avoid, but to also determine what characteristics the failing aftermarket flexplates are made with, as well as whether or not those characteristics are held in common with the stock flexplates that we have seen fail.
I stopped by my local transmission shop today. He has built a few trans for me over the years and seems to do good work. As soon as he walked outside to listen to the truck he said the torque converter is bad and that he has done a ton of them. This was without me mentioning anything about what I suspected.
As soon as I mentioned my programmer and turbo upgrade he suggested letting him beef up the trans while it was out, pump, valve body, input shaft along with a HD torque converter and beefier flex plate.
My only issue is that he gets his “HD” components from Sun Coast and their triple disc HD torque converters are 1500-1700$ Alone. So I’m currently looking at other options. I don’t want to skimp on my trans but if I can do it for less and maintain the quality, why not.
Here's one option. I especially liked the warranty and the price. Only had mine in for a couple months but no complaints yet.
Which aftermarket flexplates are prone to failure?
Were they billet or non billet?
If non billet, were they advertised as having a thicker center section?
Was the type of steel or steel alloy identified?
Here is brief and incomplete sampling of aftermarket flexplate brands, many of which appear to be billet, listed in no particular order of preference or prevalence on the market:
ATP
ATS
BD Diesel
BD Power
B&M
Dieselsite
Hughes
PATC
Precision Industries
PRW Industries
Sun Coast
The list above is by no means comprehensive. Some of the brands above offer more than one model of flexplate for the same application. Some of the brands above may merely be private labels or resellers of other brands.
But the point, and the question, is this...
If certain aftermarket flex plates are prone to failure, we would do well to try and figure out which exact aftermarket flex plates are being painted with that brush, not only to see which brand or brands to avoid, but to also determine what characteristics the failing aftermarket flexplates are made with, as well as whether or not those characteristics are held in common with the stock flexplates that we have seen fail.
It all beats me but one of the members here who I know I considered a reputable source (I forget who it was) report bad luck with aftermarket flex plates. Maybe he who made the remark will step forward and explain himself. For me, I'll just stick to OEM should mine go south.
I have no clue about automatic transmissions, or quality parts to fix them. I live near the second largest city in Texas and don't have a clue where to source parts. It's a helpless feeling having to completely rely on someone trying to sell me something. So. I really appreciate yalls input on this subject.
There is only (1) ‘stock’ replacement flex plate as far as I remember? I have replaced a bunch of them, but never had a replacement fail.
The transmission shop I use puts a $400 triple disk billet TC from his supplier in the 4R100’s he’s built for me. He’s built over a dozen in the last several years and no issues with any of them. A couple of these trucks are full time RV’ers with big 5vers and others pull HEAVY equipment trailers around for a living.
@FinnishStroker , why do you feel like a low stall TC is a good thing?
When you say stock do you mean OEM Ford? If so that would answer my question about Ford fixing what ever the issue was with the original part.
My truck came with a rebuilt transmission and billet TC…
A few years into it the TC let loose while towing home from the track. I was driving sensibly. Pulled out from a stop, easy acceleration. About the time for second gear it popped like the transfer case kicked out of gear. Coasted to the shoulder. The truck would no longer move under its own power. Reving it would make it barely creep. All say all of that just for reference sake. There was zero warning when mine went out. Lots of fine metal in the pan.
That was years ago and about 30k miles. I rebuilt the transmission buying parts from my ‘local’ Transtar (I think). They were bought out and changed names during my build. I looked into ‘better’ TC’s since I didn’t want to go through this again. The guy selling the parts was very knowledgeable and assured me their brand of low stall heavy duty converter was good. I ended up going that route due to cost.
My research showed Precision was one of the better companies and I believe what BTS used during their builds so I trusted they were tough. They also came with a $1200 price tag. I spoke to precision tech on the phone and she said their TC would be overkill for my use, perfectly fine and willing to sell me one, but she was very honest and said I could buy 3 of the others for the cost of one of theirs… So I opted to use the cheaper ‘store brand’ for my rebuild but told myself if anything happened again I would pay the big price and go overkill. No issues so far.
I’m not able to get to my files right now to see what brands they actually were but may be able to check in a few days.
The failed one was something like CVS. They were up north, maybe Michigan and were no help when I tried to call them.
So the point of the rambling?
1- you should be able to get a top of the line TC cheaper than you mentioned above, unless the prices have went up significantly.
2- there are decent cheaper options out there.
3- my TC made no noise prior to failure. Maybe the guy is right, but I would certainly check the flex plate very well first.
Note: Summit Racing sells a ‘Precision’ branded TC but I don’t believe it’s the same company. They have an extra tag line in their name. Not saying it’s a bad TC, just that it’s not the same one for 1/3 the price.
When you say stock do you mean OEM Ford? If so that would answer my question about Ford fixing what ever the issue was with the original part.
I was under the impression that Pioneer is the only manufacturer of ‘non-billet’ flex plates. Not sure if they were the OEM or not, but that’s what you’ll get from Ford if you buy one today. All others are re-branded. I could be wrong.
The stock converter is WEAK. A good triple disc converter is an OBVIOUS difference. I’m not sure how ‘stall’ is measured, but when you put a good TC in one of these trucks, you better have your foot on the brake or it’s gonna MOVE when you drop it in gear.
Gale Banks is a master marketer - f’ing genius actually. He’s made millions as a result. I think he’s created a strong brand with mostly good products, but beware of the hype...
As soon as I mentioned my programmer and turbo upgrade he suggested letting him beef up the trans while it was out, pump, valve body, input shaft along with a HD torque converter and beefier flex plate.
He’s apparently built a few dodge transmissions... It’s rare to twist an input shaft on these transmissions and maybe unheard of with ‘mild modifications’. The stock pump is fine and a TransGo kit is adequate for VB, friction material, etc. Do not put the ‘HD’ or whatever they call it modulator valve/shift plate thing in there unless you like whiplash shifts. There is no reason for a billet TC. The Pioneer works FINE and will last another 200k miles or however long this transmission lasted. DO make sure the mounting surface is CLEAN and smooth and bolts are evenly torqued. I would put the $400 triple disc billet TC I’ve been using up against any $1400-1700 fancy pants converter the places with budgets for full-page ads in the magazines have. That is based on no failures in 10yrs and plenty of hard use. Are the high $$ units better? Maybe, but you’ll likely never know the difference at your power level.
Im annoyed by your transmission guy’s confidence your TC is bad. I have seen a bunch of bad flex plates, but have yet to ‘hear’ a bad TC - even though I believe this happens. I did let a customer talk me into installing a cheap flea bay TC once and it was ‘noisy’ at idle.
For the most part, I think transmission shops are a rip off. This is a high margin business full of con artists and slimy salesman and they have given the 4R100 a bad rap with their incompetence.
The stock converter is WEAK. A good triple disc converter is an OBVIOUS difference. I’m not sure how ‘stall’ is measured, but when you put a good TC in one of these trucks, you better have your foot on the brake or it’s gonna MOVE when you drop it in gear. This has to do with how many rpm it takes to make the 2 internal fans run 1:1(close to it anyhow). They will ‘slip’ up to a point. Normally folks will describe brake stall when using the term, meaning how far can they make the TC slip until they can’t hold it with the brakes any longer or the engine rpm stops going up even though the wheels aren’t moving. The slip creates heat, a lot of it at the max stall point. So moving the stall point lower could help keep the trans cooler, but these trucks end up in lockup during normal tow conditions anyhow (lockup negates any stall discussion).
My race car can brake stall to 5000rpm. The TC was custom made to get me into the sweet spot of the power band.
One caveat on the 7.3 lower stall… the trend has been for people to go with bigger turbos and injectors effectively moving their powerband up in rpm. With the power coming on at a higher rpm the lower stall wouldn’t be optimal in my opinion. That’s why I added that as tracking point on the turbo matrix.
Gale Banks is a master marketer - f’ing genius actually. He’s made millions as a result. I think he’s created a strong brand with mostly good products, but beware of the hype... Agree with you here. The guy can market anything. Smart with engines? Absolutely. But even smarter in sales!
The points he makes in the TC sales pitch are valid though.
He’s apparently built a few dodge transmissions... Thinking I agree with you here. I’m not familiar with the Dodge builds but it doesn’t seem to match up with normal 4R100 logic.
It’s rare to twist an input shaft on these transmissions and maybe unheard of with ‘mild modifications’. The stock pump is fine and a TransGo kit is adequate for VB, friction material, etc. Do not put the ‘HD’ or whatever they call it modulator valve/shift plate thing in there unless you like whiplash shifts. There is no reason for a billet TC. (you meant flex plate right?)The Pioneer works FINE and will last another 200k miles or however long this transmission lasted. DO make sure the mounting surface is CLEAN and smooth and bolts are evenly torqued. I would put the $400 triple disc billet TC I’ve been using up against any $1400-1700 fancy pants converter the places with budgets for full-page ads in the magazines have. That is based on no failures in 10yrs and plenty of hard use. Are the high $$ units better? Maybe, but you’ll likely never know the difference at your power level. There is definitely magic to be made in a good TC. Racing applications will see differences between brands. For what we are doing I agree it’s unnecessary.
Im annoyed by your transmission guy’s confidence your TC is bad. I have seen a bunch of bad flex plates, but have yet to ‘hear’ a bad TC - even though I believe this happens. I did let a customer talk me into installing a cheap flea bay TC once and it was ‘noisy’ at idle. Yep, me too. Hoping we are right just because it’s cheaper for FishBait.
For the most part, I think transmission shops are a rip off. This is a high margin business full of con artists and slimy salesman and they have given the 4R100 a bad rap with their incompetence.
I think maybe the biggest thing for bad reputations of trans shops has to do with the customers knowledge base. Most guys on here can see through other fictitious repair but the same folks don’t have a clue about the transmission and have to take the shop’s word. Unfortunately not all shops are competent. So then even the good ones get painted with the bad reputation of “transmission shops can’t be trusted”…
Thing is, the good transmission shop deserves a decent charge because they are providing a specialized service requiring certain knowledge. So I wouldn’t say they are all a ripoff.
Thanks guys! This is the kind of info I’m looking for. I wish I could figure out the multi quote thing it would make life a lot easier 😂.
I am limited on knowledge when it comes to transmissions but it did seem like the guy at the shop was trying up sell me. I’m only making ~100-125 hp over stock so I don’t think I need a stage 2 trans.
As far as the “he works on lots of Dodges” there were 2 dodge diesels on the rack when I was there. But, there were also three 7.3 in the parking lot, including mine. I think the guy does good work, he has in the past, but he is a salesman.
So my biggest decisions now are, do I do the work myself so I can use the parts of my choosing, or look for another shop. I have dropped transmissions in the past but I’m a one man show and not sure I want to fight that big *** heavy thing by my self.
Next what do I replace while it’s out. If I’m doing the work the flex plate, torque converter and front seal are getting changed need it or not. The valve body doesn’t look like it’s that difficult to do, but I’ve never done one.
What would y’all recommend for a repair/preventative upgrade list without going overboard.
I don’t mind spending some money to make sure my rig is solid, just not wanting to waste it.
RacinJason
That makes sense about the stall RPM with the larger turbo and power band being moved up. I didn’t think about that. The guy at the shop even recommended staying with a stock stall.
What would y’all recommend for a repair/preventative upgrade list without going overboard.
I don’t mind spending some money to make sure my rig is solid, just not wanting to waste it.
Years back I put one of these BD Diesel Performance convertors in my 1996 PSD...Worked well....and wasn't $1000 back then. I my current SD I have a Diesel Site transmission, that has the 6.0 convertor in it. I have about 280k on it...never skips a beat. I'd consider this from them Diesel Site
Then contact BTS and get his valve body...bolt it in.
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