Again the first step you need to do is set your all in before the 3000 rpm FIRST. Until you do that you are not accomplishing anything and you are just jumping springs and timing around and NOT dialing in anything. You are no closer to setting this up at all.
There is a procedure to set up your mech advance timing as there is forevery otherthing you do on a vehicle and for whatever reason, you refuse to follow it then wonder why you are getting frustrated with it.

As for your meter it looks like you did not read the linked manual. You use the same setting for the coil as you do the battery in your car or ANY other system in your car. You do not And i quote "So then I tested the battery (changed the settings on the meter). So how are going to know if what you are getting is accurate if you are not going to use the same settings for both readings? That is like using a using 2 different tape measures one metric one imperial and switching between them when doing something and then wondering why nothing fits. The battery test setting is for testing batteries like AA AAA or the 12V A23. It is NOT for doing diagnostics.


Addendum: After reviewing the newer style MSD box's wiring diagrams you will never have 12V at the coil with your DVOM due to how they are triggering the system with push pull. With an analog meter it would probably read but not with your digital one. So you will just have to trust that your MSD box is working properly and supplying full voltage to the coil. .

 

One if you had half a clue would not need to graph it as this is not rocket science and idiot simple and you'd spend more time graphing it than you would actually setting it up.
It is equivalent to making a graph for dialing in a carb. But then again you had half a clue you would know this. Well I guess if you were a clueless idiot it may help ya hmm maybe that is what you are wanting graph so bad.
And once again without quantifiers graphing is a complete waste of time. But hey what do you expect for the individual that somehow thinks the RPM the timing is in at is somehow related to the base/timing total. I can see why 440 is drawn to you. you're both equally clueless. Birds of a feather I guess.

All you have done is waste the OP's time he is no closer to dialing in the timing curve.

 

78 Ford F150 460 :

In post 68 you stated 12.66v at the battery with the engine off, and 14.06v with the engine running. You used the ''battery test'' function on your multi meter, which is fine.
Assuming the engine, and thus battery, was cool, 12.66v reflects a healthy battery.
The 12v battery is actually not a 12v battery at all, it is a 12.6v battery. (6 cells times 2.1v in each)

In post 102 you said you read 14.15v, which is higher than the 14.06v previously observed.
I'm not sure if you used the 'DCV' or 'battery test function', but it doesn't matter coz they both do the same job in this instance.
For future reference, make sure that the battery has not been in use recently when testing its voltage, as it is still holding voltage when the engine is switched off.
There's a name for that which escapes me.
If you're curious, try it and see, and you might see 13 point something volts.

In post 68, you said you got 0.55v at the coil. The multi meter was set to battery test, and we know that already. (So it doesn't matter if the engine was running or not.)
Later in post 76, you said you got 0.55-0.58v with the dial correctly set to DCR. (I bet you $10 the engine was off !!)
LMAO, yeah, WTF indeed.

Also in post 68, you asked if the MSD ignition box could have something to do with the unusual results. Yeah, quite possibly (with the engine not running).

But !! In post 29 I told you to test the coil voltage with the engine running. Enough said.

Try that with the DCV setting and post up the results.

I didn't realize initially that you had an MSD 6A connected in your circuit.

With just a dizzy and a coil fitted, one should see +/- 12.66 (engine not running but ignition turned on) and +/- 14.06 (engine running) at the coil.
There's basically only one supply wire directly from the key switch to the coil.

With a dizzy, coil, and an MSD 6A, the wiring is different.
I'd still expect to see +/- 14.06v at the coil with the engine running.
The MSD 6A is connected between the coil and dizzy, so I have no idea what to expect with the ignition on and engine not running. I wouldn't consider measuring the coil supply voltage that way anyway !

I hope you're sharing your popcorn with Mrs78 Ford F150 460 !!

''Let meeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee-eeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee entertain you''.

 

Matthewq4b—regarding the meter setting when measuring the coil, you are contradicting yourself. If you go back to post 71 where I posted a picture of the settings on my meter, I stated that I tested the coil with the settings on the battery setting, which on my meter is the green area that states “Battery Load Test”. Look at the picture; I had it set in the 9 O’clock position; which is the 12v setting. Your response to me in post 73 was, “Well you have your meter set to battery testing for one. You want it on the DC Volt setting just right of the Off position at 1 O’clock.” This would be the red area to the right of the off position. Again, look at the picture. And now in post 106 you stated, “You use the same setting for the coil as you do the battery in your car or any other system in your car”. The position I would test the battery would be the 9 O’clock position/green area, NOT the 1 O’clock position/red area. So which is it? Do I put it on the battery setting or the DC Volt setting? You’re telling me one thing and then you turn around and tell me the opposite. You just stated in post 106, “the battery setting on my meter is for testing AA, AAA, or the 12v A23. It is not for diagnostics.” However in post 108, 6 by 8 just stated that using this setting is fine. So again, we have two opposing opinions. Which one is correct? I’ve always used that battery setting to test my car batteries and it has always seemed to be accurate, so tell my why I shouldn’t use that setting to test my battery? Is that not what the setting is for, to test batteries???

However your addendum states that the use of an MSD ignition box will never show 12v and I just have to trust the box is working properly. So this test was all for nothing??? I’m still puzzled at what coil voltage has to do with setting the timing. But I guess it is a moot point now since we can’t get an accurate reading because I’m using an ignition box.

Regarding the timing….I’m not refusing to follow your advice. I’m trying to follow both yours and 6 by 8’s advice, but the problem is your advice is opposite of each other, so I’m caught in the middle being pulled in two different directions. I did swap the spring to a lighter spring in an attempt to get the mechanical advance to come in sooner (like you wanted me to do) and when I did that it pinged like a SOB. The solution for that is to continue to retard the timing even further until I don’t get any pinging….correct??? From my experience, the more you retard the timing, the more of a boat anchor the engine becomes.

6 by 8 is going in the opposite direction and wants me to put as much advance in the initial timing as the engine will allow. You and 6 by 8’s opposing advice is exactly the reason I posted the question about which is the better setup; retarded initial timing with mechanical advance “all in” before or no later than 3000 rpm, or more advance initial timing with “all in” timing higher than 3000 rpm. Read my “hypothetical scenario” in post 95.

6 by 8—Yes, I used the battery setting on my meter. Look at the picture of my meter in post 71. And to answer your question, when I got the reading of 0.55-0.58v, yes the engine was off. The last advice Matthew gave was to test it with the engine off, so that’s what I did. With all of these coil voltage readings I took, the readings were bouncing around, which is why I posted my last reading “.055-0.58v”. The other readings I posted (0.55v) I just posted one number for simplicity reasons, but the reading was bouncing around. The goal was to see 12+ volts at the coil anyway, so I didn’t think it mattered if I posted 0.55 or 0.55-0.58. It was obvious those readings are a long ways away from 12v, so it didn’t really matter how accurate the number was that I posted. So whether the engine was running or not, I was still a long ways from 12v. But apparently because I’m using a MSD box, Matthew said I’m not going to see 12+ volts at the coil. So it seems this test is all for nothing. Maybe I’m wrong and I’m sure I am.

You mentioned to measure the voltage with the DC volt setting. I’ve already done that. That’s the 1 O’clock position (red area) on my meter. I’ve tested it using that setting AND the battery setting and I’ve posted the results. You mentioned you still expect to see +/- 14.06v at the coil with engine running using the MSD 6a. Nope it doesn’t; Not even close. But maybe my multimeter isn’t functioning properly? That’s a possibility. But if that were the case, then when I measured the battery voltage, that reading should be screwed up also…..correct? The battery voltage reading seems to be correct, which indicates the meter is functioning as it should.

Regarding the pinging you mentioned in post 104; let me see if I can clarify this. It did not ping at 14* WOT because I had the vacuum advance disconnected, as I was advised by one of you guys to do as a test. Someone said something along the lines of, “if you set it at 14* and disconnect the vacuum advance, I bet you it won’t ping at all”. So I did the test and that was correct; it didn’t ping. When I retarded the timing to 12*, I plugged the vacuum advance back in and then took it for a drive and it pinged at part throttle, but I did do a WOT test. I think I confused you because I wasn’t clear on “when” it pinged. My bad. So let me clarify. I did a WOT test, but it started pinging at part throttle at about 2000 rpm. So comparing the two is like comparing apples to oranges because in one test the vacuum advance was disconnected and the other test it was plugged in. I had to retard it to 10* to get it to stop pinging with the vacuum advance plugged in.

So I’ll swap to the manifold port and do the vacuum test. Then I’ll swap the springs to two medium springs and take it for a drive and see what happens. If we get all in by 3000 rpms with no pinging, then we have accomplished what Matthew has been wanting this entire time, but only without the timing being extremely retarded. So is this a case of two opposing roads that end up at the same location in the end? Hmm…..

I’ll email MSD again and see what they say.

I’m not doing any testing tonight. NOT IN THE MOOD!!! I have a headache, I’m in a pissed off mood, it’s too freaking hot outside and I still have to mow the lawn to keep the wife happy. All I want to do right now is sit under the A/C, drink some iced tea and get rid of this freaking headache. In the meantime, no one better even think of starting **** with me right now cuz I’m in the mood to stomp a mud hole in someone’s a$$!!! Yeah, as you can tell it hasn’t been a very good Monday. We’ll see what tomorrow brings.

 

Coil voltage has NOTHING to do with setting the timing.
I have no idea what moron sent you down that rabbit hole, i was just trying to help you to get a read on it.

Obviously, you never bothered to read the user's manual for your meter in the link that was sent. in Post 73. I posted that for YOU to get familiar with your meter so YOU would know how to use it. looks like that did not happen.

And YOU misinterpreted "You use the same setting for the coil as you do the battery in your car or any other system in your car" That means 1 O' clock. You are reading voltage..... NOT TESTING BATTERIES

The 9 o clock position on your meter is for testing, load testing batteries. You are NOT load testing batteries to check their condition are you? You are checking for voltage. NOT LOAD TESTING.... If you were load testing SMALL batteries to check their condition you would use the 9 O'clock position on your meter.

See below circled from page 4 of the linked user manual for your meter, it can not get any more simple than that..... you do NOT USE the 9 o'clock position to read voltages, it is for load testing SMALL batteries.

The other fool has no clue what he is doing and is just jerking you around as he uses his google foo to try to look he has half a clue. He has demonstrated repeatedly he has zero clue what the H he is talking about.

Want to know whose advice to follow just look at the site reps for both of us and that will tell you all you need to know.....

 

Good morning Mr Mud Hole Stomper. LOL

You've driven to/from work with 14* , 2 heavy springs, and 91 octane. How does it feel ?

When you've changed to the 2 medium springs, and especially with subsequent changes, start thinking about policemen and Judges when you drive. LOL

 

That looks like BS to me.

78 Ford F150 460, assuming you'll be working on your Bronco/400 tonight, please change to two blue springs as suggested above, and after the test drive, whether it pinged or not, please read the timings at 500rpm intervals again, and post up the numbers. (Remember to start at 1,000rpms.)

If it does ping, just swap back the heavy and light silver springs and be done (for now).

Do this job first.

Your current spring combo is not working as expected, and the only way to check the blue medium ones are doing their job, is to record the timing at 500rpm intervals.

I will ask you to trust me on this.

In the morning, I will explain my ''BS'' comment above !!

I will also explain how to read the MSD timing curves, that way, you will finally have a 100% understanding of the curve components.

Also, there has been way too much 'he said, she said' recently, and although it's still entertaining, it has become time consuming to deal with.

By Thursday, you'll be telling us what changes are needed, not asking !!

Print page 3 of the attached ready to review tomorrow night, assuming you will have the time tomorrow night that is.

 

Good to see you are consistent with the time-wasting and still not having the first clue. You have a real knack for making a simple job overly complicated and convoluted

 

Matthewq4b—You’re right, I never did read the manual and here’s why. When I was reading that message I was reading it on my phone instead of my computer and I did download the instructions on my phone. But when I tried to read it, it was so freaking small I could hardly read it, so I enlarged it. But when I enlarged it, I had to keep moving the text from side to side in order to read the entire sentence. It was a PITA so I didn’t bother with it. At that point I decided I was just going to trust your instructions, but apparently I misunderstood you. So tonight did a battery voltage test using the DC setting (red section) as you suggested. The reading with the engine off was 12.47v and with the engine running it was 14.46v. This time the readings weren’t bouncing around like they were when I had it on the battery setting. I’ve got an e-mail into MSD asking them how to measure voltage at the coil using the 6a ignition box. Still waiting for a response.

6 by 8—Just FYI….for the record, when I say “test”, I’m using that word interchangeably with your words of “observation” & “check”. In this discussion, they have the same meaning to me.

Driving with the 2 heavy springs feels like it doesn’t quite rev as quick as with the lighter springs. But the pinging is gone with the 2 heavy springs at 14*.

So the first thing I did tonight was to test the battery voltage with my meter, as I explained in my response to Matthew above. Then I swapped from ported vacuum to manifold vacuum, checked the rpms (made sure they were at 800), then checked the timing. The timing was at 29* at idle. The vacuum reading was 17”. Then I took it for a drive. I had to be careful because there was a cop just up the road, so I had to get creative when I got on it. My Bronco has turbo glass packs on it so it’s really freaking loud when I get on it. You can hear it for miles….LOL. That will change when I get my new mufflers and install the headers. Anyway, so at this point I still had the 2 heavy springs, but now I’m driving on manifold vacuum. Honestly, I didn’t really feel any difference in the giddy up and go department. I did notice that when I shifted into drive, the rpms only went down 100 rpm, as opposed to when I have it on ported vacuum and shift into drive, the rpms drop 200 rpms. There was no pinging during this test, but I didn’t expect there to be since I still had the 2 heavy springs.

So then I swapped in the two medium (blue) springs and also went back to ported vacuum (you didn’t say to keep it on manifold vacuum when I swapped the springs, so I assumed I’d go back to ported vacuum). Took it for a drive and it barely pinged very briefly. I had to really listen for it to hear it. I’d be willing to bet that if I backed the timing down to 13*, the pinging would be gone. It’s right at that fine line between pinging and not pinging. This is much better then when I had 87 octane with 1 heavy and 1 light spring at 14*. It didn’t ping as much with the 2 blue springs with 91 octane as it did with 87 octane and 1 heavy & 1 light spring. The engine seemed to rev a little quicker than with the heavy springs.

So when I got back from the test drive, I checked the timing (I didn’t change the springs yet; so it still has the two medium springs. I left them in because it just barely pinged and I wanted to see what you thought first). Keep in mind that I do not have a dial back timing light. It’s just a simple MSD timing light with no adjustments whatsoever. It’s either on or off. My timing tape on the balancer is white with black timing marks & numbers. So the flashing strobe light on the white background sometimes gets my eyes going crazy. So sometimes checking the timing can be a challenge. But here’s the results…

1000 = 14*

1500 = 16*

2000 = 23*

2500 = 27*

3000 = 31*

3500 = 31*

So why do you say my current spring combo (not sure which combo you’re referring to) isn’t doing their job? What are you seeing that makes you say that?

 

Then YOU should have spoke up said you could not read the manual and it could have been posted here in it's entirety.

Why are you doing this with the vacuum advance hooked up ?
That will skew your readings as you have no idea if is impacting your curve. Especially since there will be enough manifold vac when the vehicle is stationary and you are under hood taking timing readings at various RPM's. Pretty sure I made it clear that you need to leave your vac adance disconnected when doing this.

You are trying to do everything at once and it is getting you nowhere quick. You are still messing with this how many days later? Dialing in timing takes less than an hour with this style of distributor even when a beginner does it.
You could have had your timing dialed in 5 times over already if you had just followed the proper instructions instead of following the ramblings of someone that has no real clue what they are doing.
But hey it's your time and frustration all the power to ya.

 

LMAO @ the cop bit.

Your idle timing with no vacuum advance is 14*. With vacuum supplied it jumped up to 29*. That means the vacuum canister advances timing by 15* at the highest vacuum. So far so good.

In theory, we can expect vacuum to increase up to a limit, say 21'', while advancing ignition timing, and we saw that in practice using the numbers in posts 36 and 68.

Those numbers were 17'' at 10*, 18'' at 14*, and 20'' at 25*. Once again, so far so good.

But now you're seeing a drop to 17'' at 29*. Not so good, and not logical. (This detail will be note number 3, together with the rpms observation. We'll come to notes later.)

You wouldn't feel any change with the heavy springs etc. Try again when the timing is finally dialed in with any and all problems fixed.

Well done for observing the rpm change, and more importantly, for mentioning it.

It was no coincidence, and no, it is not right.

Test = observation + check. Got it. Thank you.

Time to get out the MSD timing curves, which are all based on WOT. If you didn't print it, make sure you at least have a big desktop/laptop screen to use.

Look at the top left curve with '2 heavy springs'.

Note that the timing is all in at 3,500rpms, which intersects with the 18* limiter.

The curve starts at 0* and ends at 18*.

Using your actual readings in post 1 of 32* at 3,500rpms, 28* at 3,000rpms, 14* at idle (800rpms), and an 18* limiter, one can see that the actual and expected are both the same.

I use the word expected, but the figures should be actual in real life.

Adding the real figures into the graph to reflect 14*-32* instead of 0*-18* shows us that the curve stays exactly the same shape.

There is no change to the limiter range of 18* from idle to all in, and there is no change to the all in rpms.

If you had moved the dizzy to 12* at idle, which implies a total of 30*, and plotted those numbers, no change to the all in rpms, and no change to the limiter range.

If you had moved the dizzy to 16*, which implies a total of 34*, and plotted those numbers, still no change to the all in rpms and limiter range.

Let's say you want the total to stay at 32*, but you want the all in rpms delayed, next step is changing the limiter to the blue 21* one.

The all in would now be at +/-3,800 rpms, and the idle would be 11* by default.

But let's also say that you don't want 11* at idle, you still want 14*, and you still want the rpms delayed, changing a limiter would not be the solution, but rather a spring change would.

Maybe I'm stating the obvious, or maybe I'm not.

The point is, you need to digest all this so that you understand what's going on and how the relationships change.

Did we need to plot a graph with the above 'actual' numbers ? No !

Why not ?

Coz when you read the numbers with a timing light, they matched the MSD predictions. No obvious problem.

But hang on, you weren't using 2 heavy springs after all, you were using one heavy and one light spring.

Well that changes things doesn't it !!??

Now where's the graph with one light spring and one heavy one ?

Oh yes, bottom left.

With those springs, and an 18* limiter, your all in timing should be at 3,000rpms. Alarm bell number 1. (This will be note 1.)

Do you think we should plot an actual graph ? Yup !

You did in post 44, and at that time, the numbers were 14* - 31*.

The graph showed us that the actual numbers were ahead of the expected curve up to a point, and then lagged behind the expected curve, but were similar enough.

We didn't need to plot a graph to tell us that the spring(s) might be faulty, but it didn't hurt to see the actual pattern.

In addition, what happened to 32 ? Did he go shopping and will return later ? Did he get rushed to ICU with a bad dose of Covid ?

Either 14 should have been 13, or the limiter is 17* and not 18*.

Next up the springs were changed to 2 blue medium.

So let's look at the graph at the upper right.

It clearly states that the all in timing should be at 2,500 rpms. Alarm bell 2. (This will be note 2.)

So which idiot posted up that the all in will be at 3,000 rpms ?

That would be me.

I put it there to see if the former Chev mechanic was paying attention to detail.

Also, because of the observed lag earlier, I suspected that the all in might be at +/- 2,750 rpms (as opposed to the expected 3,000rpms).

There have been no addendums or edits at this time. (7.25am)

Thank you for posting up the actual numbers with 2 blue medium springs.

I needed to see a second set of actual numbers to determine if the spring rate was at fault, or if the actual controller was at fault.

Just looking at your numbers, I'm inclined to say that the controller is faulty.

I see that 32 is still A.W.O.L.

The numbers in post 44 are almost identical to those in post 114.

The ONLY difference is that the all in timing is now in at 3,000rpms, down from 3,500rpms.

Houston we have a problem. LOL

You said that the engine seemed to rev a little quicker than with the heavy springs.

That implies that the blue springs were effective, but by how much, we don't really know.

It also implies that the actual timing numbers should definitely have changed, but they didn't.

By all means keep the timing at 14-32, but if the mild, brief, pinging persists, you could back it down to 12-30 (for now).

Did it ping at WOT ?

Ok, here's your options :

A Try another timing light that is known to be fault free. (The simple MSD type is fine.)

B 'Borrow' the 6A from the Truck/460 and see how it behaves in the Bronco/400.

C Send an email to MSD with full details in points 1 to 3 asking them WTF?.

D None of the above

E All of the above

F Some of the above

If you're thinking, ''Oh FFS !'', LOL, I can relate.

 

Why did I do this with the vacuum advance hooked up??? What are you talking about? I took the timing readings with the vacuum advance disconnected. Had it been hooked up, the readings would have been much higher.

 

6 by 8-- You mentioned, "But now you're seeing a drop to 17'' at 29*. Not so good, and not logical. (This detail will be note number 3, together with the rpms observation. We'll come to notes later.)"

I think I screwed this test up. I used the manifold vacuum port on the carb to give me that vacuum reading. And I just realized after reading this response, that you wanted me to keep the vacuum advance plugged into this manifold port and take a vacuum reading at another location…..correct? This could be the reason this reading isn’t logical; I think I did it wrong. Let me redo this reading tonight after work and I’ll report back. I’ll keep the vacuum advance plugged into the manifold port and look for another port to plug my vacuum gauge into. This is nothing more than a brain fart on my part.

 

Let's see now.

Do you deal with manifold versus ported vacuum advance every day ? No.

Is this your first time making changes to observe what happens ? Yes.

Did you do this after a full day at work, but with considerations like voltages and timing curves on your mind ? Yes.

Did you just find the solution to the problem on your own using your own logic ? Yes.

Well then, all I have to say to you is

If you do another test tonight, fine.

If you only do it next week, fine.

If you only complete the timing dial in in September ! Also fine.

I reckon you've learned quite a bit already by putting theory into practice.

For example, this time last week, did you know that premium 91 octane gives your engine an extra 4* of ping free timing compared to 87 octane ?

I'm on the other side of your midnight, so with that, I'll say good morning, and wish you a good evening.

 

Vacuum update.....so I plugged the vacuum advance into the manifold port on the carb (and plugged the ported vacuum port), connected the vacuum gauge into the vacuum tree on the back of the intake, fired up the engine and let it warm up. When I first fired it up (cold engine) it was bouncing between 15" & 16", but as I let the engine warm up it eventually made its way up to 18" of vacuum. This was at 900 rpm. When I switched back to ported vacuum, the rpm went back down to 800 rpm.

So yesterday I got 17" of vacuum at the manifold port on the carb with the vacuum advance disconnected and the ported vacuum port plugged. Today with the vacuum advance plugged in, I got 18" of vacuum at the back of the manifold. Not sure if this is significant info that tells you anything, but i thought it wouldn't hurt to mention it..