Matthew4qb--So I have an update on the Bronco. Bear with me because I'm extremely frustrated. Nothing is going right and I'm not just talking about the timing on my Bronco. One of my other vehicle projects has got me to the point I want to drive it off a freaking cliff!!!! Anyway, here's what I did with the Bronco tonight. I swapped out the heavy spring for a medium blue spring. So I ended up with a medium spring and a light spring and the initial/base timing is still set at 10*. Because the wife wasn't home from work yet to help me figure out my timing curve, I decided to take it for a drive to see if it has any pinging. And low and behold, as my luck would have it, of course there was pinging again. It starts pinging at 2000 rpms. So when I got home I removed the medium spring and reinstalled the heavy spring, so I still have a heavy spring and a light spring. So that test was a failure. Since it was pinging, I didn't even bother with figuring out the timing curve.

So then I moved onto testing the coil. I turned the dial to the right / 1 o'clock position (in the red section) just like you said to do. I touched the black meter lead to the negative battery post and the red meter lead to the + post on the coil and got this readout....are you sitting down? Ok good, because the reading was jumping between .55 and .58. WTF!!! I don't get it.

Anyway, so that's as far as I got on the Bronco tonight. I haven't even had a chance to think about working on the truck yet. I want to get the timing figured out on the Bronco before I start on the truck. Beside the fact I'm trying to get my 87 T-bird Turbo Coupe on the road and at the same time I'm working on getting my 67 Cougar put back together and on the road. I've got a lot of projects going on all at once.

 

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So do you know where your mech was all in at when you changed the spring? If you did not, then reinstall the med spring and check where you have the timing all in at.
You are never going to get this set up if you just keeping going back and forth. This is a process of dialing it in it is not just a one-and-done gig so there is going to be trial and error that is why it is called setting up/ dialing in/tuning.

And you need to check coil voltage with the vehicle ignition in the run position you can also check it with the vehicle running Cause if you were actually getting .5V at the Coil + the engine would not run at all.
Did you check the coil neg to ground to be sure it was not wired backwards ? (it happens)

Also did you actually bother to test the meter to see if it was working properly, for example by reading/testing bat voltage? That is the first thing you do when you fire up a meter is test it's function on a known source For Volts that is a known source of power or on continuity/OHM's by touching the leads together.

Is the battery in the meter it toast? is the meter itself toast? These cheap DVOM's do grenade I had to toss one just last week that suddenly started reading about 50% higher than it should. So you should always have another around so you have something to compare it to if you have one that starts doing goofy crap.

 

Matthewq4b is entertaining me, it is YOU who annoyed me.

This entire thread is all about the timing curve in your newly rebuilt 400, period, and early on in the thread I said that you can deal with the 460 after you're done with the 400.

I should have said ''Ignore the 460 for now'', but I didn't.

I did notice from time to time that you referred to driving the Bronco or driving The Truck, but I didn't pay attention to that.

So when we suddenly changed to talking about the 460, I hadn't realized, but after, I simply thought 'f$$k that'.

Refer to the 400 only until it has been finally dialled in, then introduce the 460.

 

With regard to 1 above :

No, I am not part of that consensus at all.

I have said things like ''depends on the engine'', ''guideline'', ''say'', and ''the engine will tell you what it does or does not like'', throughout this thread.

I didn't use those words to cover my ar$e, I said them because the general guidelines are just that, 'general'.

With regard to 2 :

Leave the 460 unchanged. You know it is detonation free and you don't have to worry about it.

If you get the time to fine tune it before July, then ok.

 

No, it wasn't luck at all.

It should have been no surprise either. (Your logic and gut feels predicted it already.)

I'll come back to this later.

 

Do you mean that you couldn't plot the curve without your wife ?

If yes, no need to.

We originally plotted the graph purely to see if the springs would manage the speed of the curve in accordance with the MSD guidelines(graphs). That's all.

The 'actual' plotted curve behaves 'close enough' to the 'predicted' curve to allow you to carry on using the dizzy with confidence.

Or, did you mean you couldn't check the 'all in'' rpm level.

If yes, yeah, you need that !

You didn't fail the test coz it's not really a test, it's part of the trial and error required to get a final 'dial in'.

When your wife is available, do the spring swap again, and check the all in rpms whilst still at 10 degrees initial.

Before doing the driving 'ping test' at WOT etc, drop the initial to 6*, and re-check the all in.

Post up the all in and initial numbers when you give feedback.

This won't be the last change you make.

 

Thank you for the numbers back in post 68.

Back in post 43 you said, ''So to get 21”, I assume you are shooting for the idle timing to be somewhere north of 18* once all is said and done???''.

Well done.

You'd probably need thirty something degrees advance to get 21'' of vacuum.

When I asked you if your engine was smog equipped, I was actually hinting at 'Full Manifold Vacuum' for the vacuum timing.

Make a ''to do/to check list'' and write down full manifold advance, coil input voltage, coil test, HT lead test, spark plug heat, and spark plug test. (I.E. They can wait.)

These are not urgent and are purely checks, as opposed to your timing curve which is 'broken'.

I say broken coz it needs to be dialled in to 'fix' the issues.

 

I know how you feel.

I spent the whole of yesterday trying to fix the gas boiler. We're not able to cook or have hot showers etc without it.

Finally late last night I determined that we'd run out of gas. Duh !! I wish I'd thought of that earlier.

The under floor heating has also packed up, and Mum doesn't like her feet gettin' cold, so I must fix that today.

I know that one doesn't normally get under floor heating and gas boilers in an igloo, but I think you've worked out already that our igloo is an upmarket fancy one.

I'll pop in here again later when I've fixed the under floor heating.

I will have a $10 bet ready to make with you.

Don't come with, 'I don't have $10', coz I know you do.

You saved $10 when you paid your son f$$k all $$$$$'s. LOL

 

It is now later !

I found the fault with the under floor heating. Yeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee-haaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaw

Mum had pulled the plug out thinking it was the hoover plug. That also took a long time to fix. FFS !

No, we don't have electricity coz the population is too small to warrant an electrical supply grid.

Many years ago, Mum imported a 'gas to electricity converter machine' from China.

OK, we are about to finalize your optimal timing curve in conjunction with 87 octane.

When Mrs 78 Ford F150 460 is free to help you, please follow the suggestions in post 81.

If you get pinging at 6* you'd have to drop the initial timing to 4*, say, and probably adjust the carb idle, to get rid of it.

Driving with 4* will just pi$$ you off and waste time, so don't bother unless you're curious as to how bad it will feel.

If you do not get pinging at 6*, you could increase the initial until you do get pinging.

You could do that if you really want to know what effect the spring change really made. Your call.

Anyway, once you have finished that exercise, put your initial back to 10, and change both springs to heavy springs, and go for a drive.

There should be no pinging.

Then, set the timing to 14*, and go for a drive again. I still don't expect pinging. (You've already driven with the 10-28 and 14-32 ranges, so this will compare apples with apples.)

By all means try 16*.

Once you have a ping free timing curve, please ask The Boss to assist you again, and plot the timing starting at 1,000 rpms, and post up the numbers.

This will be your optimal curve with 87 octane.

Then we either wait for the tank to empty and get filled with 91, or, you drill a hole, drain the tank, and fit a drain plug, to speed things up. LOL

On a serious note, there is no rush, relax !

If you find that I am wrong with anything I've said, please say so.

I really don't mind looking like an idiot, but I would mind if what I said incorrectly was relied upon.

Now, about that $10 bet.

I bet $10 that no amount of combinations of the limiters and springs will bring your total timing in by 3,000 rpms while maintaining an acceptable initial time and being detonation free.

 

Still have not figured out that base timing and when the ,mech is all in, have no relation to each other. Go back to being out, cause you really have no clue what you are talking about as you so eloquently continue to demonstrate with your diarrhea posts.

 

Now that's an invitation to stay in and play a game called ''explain that'', and right on queue, I can hear the song, ''Let me entertain you'' by Robbie Williams.

I'm the host of the game, so I'll go first.

I suggested to the OP that he should record his ignition timings at 500rpm intervals and plot the numbers on a timing curve graph.

Explain that.

Ok, I will.

When I look at a spring, I have absolutely no idea how strong it is, and if it will do its intended job properly.

Using valve springs as an example, they are easy to check.

A cam manufacturer will specify a set of springs to match their cam, and the specifications will include spring pressures at given heights.

Those are easy to measure and correct.

If the spring pressure is too high at a given height, we don't use it.

If the spring pressure is too low, but not stupidly low, we can use shims.

So, verifying that the valve springs are to spec, using the supplied 'quantifiers', one can fit them with the confidence that they will work as intended.

No such quantifiers are given for the tiny little dizzy springs.

Therefore, do we simply fit them and keep our fingers crossed that they work ?

Do we install the whole dizzy and assume that it works ?

No, we use the quantifiers supplied by the manufacturer, which in this case are the timing curve graphs supplied by MSD.

If the plotted curve created from actual engine readings resembles the shape of the supplier's curve, the dizzy can be kept.

If the shape is way out, it may be faulty springs.

If the shape is still way out with another set of springs, then the ignition box is likely suspect, and the dizzy should be returned.

As a side note, the wording in the above quote is very polite.

I haven't used the word diarrhea for decades. Instead I use the word sh$t.

I thought of my Mum drinking with her friends, eloquently sipping their Jack Daniels, Vodka, etc, saying, ''This is good diarrhea'' as opposed to, ''This is good sh$t''.

The idea of that will highly amuse her too, so I'll tell her when she gets back from the Night Club.

 

Your turn.

Explain that.

 

And the fact that you need that explained is very telling.
And to be quite honest I can't be bothered you really are not worth my time.

 

I just explained why in my opinion the plotting of a curve is useful.

All you have to do is explain why my explanation is wrong.

Your explanation isn't for me, it's for the OP and other readers, so yes, you should be bothered because according to you, I'm posting rubbish !!

 

Ok, I'm being unfair.

There's no way that you can explain why my explanation is wrong, because it is 100% correct.

And given that you said graphs are useless, and given that you are a supposed former Ford engineer, I am left questioning your competence.

Here's a quote from post 70, and it is not the first thread within which you have felt the need to mention your credentials, albeit unconfirmed.

Your latest attack on me was in post 85 wherein you said, ''Still have not figured out that base timing and when the ,mech is all in, have no relation to each other.''

I had a good giggle at that, and this is one of the many reasons that I find you entertaining.

Using Robbie's lyrics from his ''Let me entertain you'' song, I see you as this, ''You're my rock of empathy, my dear''.

The reason I had a good giggle is because you are contradicting yourself.

In post 32 you said this,

Your base timing is a function of your total minus your mech.
Your base timing is just a by-product of total minus mech.

Of course they are related. You can't have one without the other. Turn the dizzy either way, regardless of when the total is all in, and they both move identically.

Or, changing one component could lead to the necessary change of another component, which confirms they are related.

Your attack was based on my comment, ''I bet $10 that no amount of combinations of the limiters and springs will bring your total timing in by 3,000 rpms while maintaining an acceptable initial time and being detonation free.''

The Op's ideal timing curve for his engine spec and 87 octane, is obtained with the 18* black limiter and two heavy springs, all in at +/- 3,500rpms with a total timing of +/- 32* and an initial of +/- 14*.

So far you have said the following :

Post 30

Disconnect your vac advance and set up your mech first, And 32° with your build is pretty conservative.
14° base is really about as much as you want to run. Ideally, you should dial that back and increase the available mech advance. Also you want your total mech all in no later than 3000 rpm.
shoot for a base of 6-12° by adjusting your available mech.

Post 34

Well, some rather horrible advice has been disseminated in this thread.
You want to get the advance fully in by at least 3000 rpm. That is the typical street engine curve. in performance build you'd maybe want it all in by 2500 RPM. But getting your curve adjusted so it all in before 3000rpm is the first thing you do before anything else.
I suspect you will end up closer to 34° once you have kicked a few degrees back from WOT detonation. I had a similar build back in the day and I was dialed in for 34° total.

Post 46

So first thing you should do get your advance all in under 3000 RPM this will maximize your horsepower output and in turn combustion efficiency. This will necessitate a spring change to lighter springs.
Then set the advance so you are just getting light pining on at wot on Regular. Post 49

On what evidence do you surmise that getting the total in by at least 3000RPM is going to cause it to ping? What exactly are you basing that on? This ought to be good....
(Open chamber heads, flat top pistons, cam IVC, high DCR, 87 octane. This was stated already)Post 73

3000 RPM is actually considered late for full mech advance generally you want to see it all in by 2500-2800 RPM. But for trucks, it may be beneficial to push it back a bit to 3000 rpm.

And again not sure how many more times I need to say this, but need to get your mech all in before 3000rpm BEFORE doing anything else.

THEN you can adjust for your total. You are not going to have ANY idea what your total will be UNTIL you get the adavnce all in by 3000rpm.

So you need to get your mech advance in all by 300RPM "FIRST" THEN you can play with your total.

Post 75

Yes drop down the heavy spring down to a medium spring then check to see where the timing is all in at. You know your total is 18 and you are using the black bushing. The Black bushing gives you 18° of mech advance. I would swap it for the Green bushing this will give you 23° of mech advance.

Now we have mentioned diarrhea posts.

None of your suggestions will give a decent timing curve. None.

The OP has already tried a lighter spring. Pingiiiiiiiiiiiiiiing !!

You want to waste his time even more by making him change the limiters which will lead to more spring changes, and test driving, and annoyance, and continued pingiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiing.

You wanted him to go to a shop and buy limiters in post 46. (''As for you advance pull the one out of your dist take it with you to Napa AutoZone where ever and ask for one for a gm HEI distributor such as SMP VC242 for HEI or VC24A for points then you can compare it to yours.'')

You wanted him to order an adjustable vacuum advance which will be more time and money. (Post 39 ''Your part throttle pinging is ALL due to the vacuum advance.)

Umm really ? It's all vacuum advance huh ? LMAO (It's maybe, and maybe not !!)

So, I'm calling you out as either a fake, or an engineer who did not work in the Ford engines and ignition system departments. Maybe in the paint colour selection department.

A true former Ford engineer will post up a suggested mix of springs and limiter and rpm range which will give a non pinging timing curve on the current 87 octane setup with an idle of at least 10*.

In case you missed it, my suggestion is two heavy springs with the black 18* limiter.

The requirement of a new adjustable vacuum advance canister will be determined when 91 octane is in use.