UPDATE: The Turbo Matrix now has it's own thread. This concept thread has ran it's course. Please look at the first post at the following link for the thread and current version of the matrix.

https://www.ford-trucks.com/forums/1...l#post19726779

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I've been talking about and tinkering with a turbo matrix for a while now. The concept is for those of us who have used SXE turbos to give our impressions of how they run so others can review the chart to decide what turbo will best fit their needs.

I'm posting this thread to get help in finalizing the chart concept. I do not want to get into the specifics of how they perform in this thread please. All items contained within the document are just examples to help us visualize the final product. Once we get the matrix form set then I will start a new thread where we can add the details.

Originally I was trying to come up with a way to gather actual data and chart it. Like maybe boost at differing rpm, but this proved to have repeatability issues.
Another issue I have ran into is trying to capture all of the information but yet make it small enough to be read in the forum. I think this idea has been abandoned and the matrix will have to be downloaded. Otherwise we just can't get enough details.

This has evolved into a concept of just giving specifics of the vehicle and its use, then a concise impression of the turbo.

My vision is to attach an excel version of the document which the FTE community could download and filter or sort to find a best to match their truck setup, driving style, etc.
As new users share their experience we can update the spreadsheet and attach the new version to the original post.

So what are your thoughts on the concept and the items contained in the spreadsheet?
Anything that needs added?
I definitely want to capture the user's normal rpm range as that seems to be a key factor in which turbo will suit them best. Is there a better way to capture this aspect?
I can't guarantee all suggestions will make it into the final version but I would at least like to get some feedback before trying to make this thing go live.

OK, so just now before posting I noticed an issue with the concept... It will not allow a sort with a mixed bag of merged cells. So we will need to do a workaround or redesign the empty/towing portion. I was attempting to capture each version/user's impression of both towing and empty in a simplistic way but that may need to change. I still wanted to share the concept as I have had people asking about it lately.

UPDATE: Content moved to new thread. https://www.ford-trucks.com/forums/1...l#post19726779

 

Do you want to include non-T4/SXE turbos in the comparison?

 

Can add to my column: Max weight towed: 13,000lb, 5th wheel/flat bed. Driving style: Medium
RPM: 1600-3000
3.73 gear, 285/75 tire, php tuning, stock 140cc
Elevation: 800ft

 

I was considering doing that. My thought was maybe we should include rows for other turbos ran by people who have converted to the T4/SXE. I don’t think we can open it up just everyone’s option of their turbos, but feel like doing so for the ones who have completed a T4 swap will at least give some comparisons to other iterations.

Thanks for joining in Brokestroke. I will add the info to the matrix. But before we get too deeply into that aspect, do you have any recommendations on what should or should not be included in the chart?



For the “normal rpm” section I was trying to capture what rpm the truck sees as a norm. For me it will definitely go up to 3000 or above at times, but that’s not the norm for me. Typically I’m cruising at the rpm I have listed. Even when running through the gears it doesn’t usually go above 2700.

I would love to include an rpm range of where folks think the turbo performs well. But it appears this is very subjective.

 

Jason, I filled in the matrix to the best of my ability.



Copy and paste the input below as you see fit.
Elevation: 1000
Weight: 10K - 12K
Type: 5th Wheel
RPM Min: 1500
RPM Max: 2500
Impression: Useable boost ~1500 RPM & full at 2000 RPM. 5th wheel towed at 1900 - 2100 RPM and 63 - 67 MPH in 5th gear or same RPM at 55 MPH in 4th gear.

Please be candid and let me know if any of my input is not what you are looking for. You will not hurt my feelings by telling me I did it wrong, I make mistakes every day...

Thank you very much for putting in the effort to complete this matrix. If it comes in handy for just one person, it was worth the time and work put into it by anyone who contributed to it.

 

Hello sir. Thanks for the contribution.
The data you gave works well with the matrix, but I did not see anything for the unloaded driving column, or maybe this not a concern for you? My thought was to try and capture both ways the truck is used so people could decide which best suits their needs. For example you may only use the truck for towing and a certain turbo might work well for you. But another user may only occasionally tow so they need to consider both conditions. In this example your results would hold less weight for this particular potential purchaser and they should gravitate to the users who daily drive more often. And that's ok. If you only tow and only care about towing then I would blank out your empty row so users can understand that's not how you use the truck.

Maybe this empty/towing split isn't really necessary? I was thinking people may run different rpm depending on how they are using their truck. But it is causing a bit of unneeded complexity to the matrix.
I updated the matrix to correct the filtering issue mentioned last night. This makes each row separate and makes it a bit busy. It may be best to just lose one row and put all the impression information into one spot. I could wrap the cell to give 2 lines.
Or a new thought...what if I added a column to say "Towing Importance" or just "Tow Time" and we could use a percentage. I think importance may be the best since someone may only tow occasionally but really want it to tow well. But I'm also trying to keep the cell names small so the data is easier to view.

I do want to mention that the goal right now isn't necessarily to fill in the blanks but to approve or finalize the matrix parameters. So before we get too deep into the data let's make sure I'm not missing some important information which should be included in the matrix.

See the updated version in the first post.

 

I went back and reworked the chart again. Version 3 is attached to the first post as well as an update on the the changes in the first post.
I decided the Towing % would be the best way to go...now that I type that, maybe "Tow %" would be the best column name... but anyhow that was one change.
It also seemed the "freezed panes" were too far to the right. So I moved the turbo versions to the left by the user name.
The filter has been added to the file so you can play with that as well and see how it works.

For the final product we will need to decide how the default sort is completed. I would like to keep user names together, or at least I think I would.... The thought there is that it is an easy comparison between changes a user has made.

And we also need to get a feel on Noob's idea. Should we include rows for SXE users to describe other turbos they have used as well?

 

My mistake sir... I was all over the place yesterday mentally and physically yesterday and for the life of me I could not comprehend the double lines in the RPM section. Even after reading your explanation of those spaces more than 3 times... I was wiped is all it came down to, but wanted to provide the information I could because your efforts are in good nature and have an educational value.

Please see my additions below to the newest version of the matrix as of 3 Nov 20.



Copy and paste the input below as you see fit.
Tow Time: 90%

As for adding other columns or turbo qualifiers, I am for that. The more information available anyone evaluating the matrix or sifting through the matrix the better. There comes a point where too much information is overwhelming and cumbersome to handle, but I think you did a great job with the formatting and keeping things simple and yet including the details people look for when selecting a turbo.

I would say, the common ones for sure like GTP38, GTP38R, KC38R, KC3XX various varieties. Maybe instead of GTP38, you could have Modified Stock Turbo (MST) as the GTP38 is/was a starting point that we all moved on from. Perhaps create a copy and paste text portion similar to what I did in post #5 of the cells you are populating for those that are on mobile devices and/or don't have access to Excel, Open Office or Google Docs. It happens... Once they have filled in the copy/paste information, then you can hand jamb the information provided by the FTE'r into the matrix and we can move on.

Perhaps a bold or double line in order to separate the various types of turbos. Just to make it visually appealing or easily distinguishable? Just an idea, not a recommendation.

Well done Jason, I commend you for your efforts and look forward to this matrix moving forward and becoming a useful tool for the FTE in the future.

 

I just thought of something else. Do we want to include the tune (not just Tuner) used in the matrix?

Here's my info:
Compressor: GTP38R
Turbine: GTP38R
A/R: GTP38R
Transmission: 4R100
TC Stall: I will have to check with BTS
Gear: 4.30
Tires: 37"x12.50R16.50
Injectors: FFD 205/80
Tuner: DP Tuner F5
Tune: 40hp Tow, 60hp Tow or 80hp Tow depending on payload.
Tow Time: 25%
Elevation: 925
Weight: 5K - 12K. I tow a wide variety.
RPM Min: 1500
RPM Max: Redline
Driving Style: Maniac
Impression: Any towing (and even unloaded hard acceleration) is an exercise in EGT monitoring ever since the 205/80 injectors went in. That is why it is getting converted to T4/SXE.

 

Leonard brings up a good point, but I don't know the impact that would have on your filters. If you decide to input a specific tune, I run PHP 65 HP Performance 100% of the time. The Performance part of the tune is negated by my ZF6 transmission. I know Eswift and I are odd ***** though, so apply your changes to the masses, not us.

Perhaps a cell for towing specific tune and an unloaded specific tune could be indicated by each person. The tunes would be what they prefer to use or what they use most of the time.

A comment tab might work, but then you wouldn't be able to see the information at a glance or on a mobile device.

 

Quick reply, then I will try and tweak the file a bit more.

This is the entire reason I wanted to hash out some of the details before "going live" with the chart. You guys have good ideas and I want to be able to incorporate them best as possible. I had thought about putting up other turbo styles in the chart but was on the fence with it. When Leonard mentioned adding it gave me the confidence that maybe it is needed. I hadn't even thought about adding a tune column, maybe because I bounce around all the time. It's a good idea. I'm not sure I will be able to incorporate all the tunes you run into the chart though!

Sous, as you said, the daunting task is getting all the right information without getting so much that it becomes overwhelming. That's a fine line sometimes!

I like the idea of adding a blank version for folks to fill in. Maybe a blank post with all the items and then people could quote it and fill in the blanks. You will have to help me remember all this stuff by the way.

Noob, the thought behind the TC Stall was to try and see if this effects which turbo people like. Eswift and myself were having trouble with the turbo most people loved. At some point we noticed that we were both running a low stall convertor. Ultimately this column may be meaningless, but it was a data point to try and understand what makes people prefer one over another. The same thought was for the tuners. PHP seems to shift early and lock up the converter quickly. The TC lockup was/is part of my issues. I noticed it would go 3rd to 3rd LU almost immediately. This pulls the rpm down too much. A different tuner may not cause this issue.

I agree all members may not have access to excel. This is part of the reason I was trying to keep the chart small enough for a single page view. Then a snapshot could be displayed for all to see. But keeping it that small doesn't allow enough information so I think we will need to roll with the bigger version and figure out how to display it for others.

Data analysis is all about keeping it general enough to group items, but detailed enough to catch the variations impacting the data. Not difficult at all.

 

Maybe you need 2 matrices. One for the "before T4/SXE" setups and then this one.

 

Too late! lol

Forgot to mention earlier about the filtering, I do not expect people to want to filter every column. I could see a use in filtering for each turbo variation, compressor size, turbine size, or maybe driving style.
Or it could be sorted by any of these items. Maybe see them in big to little by compressor size.

The file has been updated on the first post.
-Added 2 tune columns. Daily & Tow. This will either need to be what you normally run or just say various.
-Added a "Turbo" column. Now we can capture various other turbos too. Maybe these will be moved to the bottom after the matrix is completed. Or we could color code by each turbo type like SXE, 38R, MST. The current color scheme was to allow easy viewing of different rows.
-Stretched the row height to better wrap the "impression" column. This allowed shortening the column to make it easier to see in the page. But this does push rows down out of view.
-Added Noob & Sous's updated info.

Feedback is appreciated. Let me know if the new changes are heading in the right direction.

Also, does the "rpm" column make sense? This is probably one of the most important aspects of turbo selection but I feel it is still lacking a bit. For example, I used 1500-2300 because this is where my truck is "normally" while cruising or towing. Yes it can see up to redline at times. It will see 2700 towing some back road hills in 3rd gear. But this just isn't where it normally lives and is a big part of the reason I wasn't happy with the previous turbo. Is there a better way to express this in the chart?

Here's a current snapshot.

 

In my opinion, the filters and sorting capability is a very nice and thoughtful feature to have for someone exploring their options on a turbo upgrade. Be it from a billet wheel to a full T4 system. Think about how many times we have seen the "what turbo wheel should I get" or "what turbo is best for me" question. We could still answer these questions to the best of the communities abilities, but we could also link this matrix as well.

I "think" people without Excel can use free viewers like Google Docs, Open Office, Libre Office, etc... I know on an Android device Office tools like Word and Excel are available or loaded, but I don't know about Apple devices. Obviously the most ideal device used to view the matrix in its entirety where it is capable of being manipulated is on a computer of some sort.

As for making a screen shot or snip of the matrix for people to view at a glance, there are ways to overcome that as well.

For example, in this post I used a single snip of a reduced zoom view of the PID Charting Tool in order to upload the visual aid.

In this post, I used two well placed snips of a less reduced zoom view of the PID Charting Tool in order to upload the visual aid.

Links were used as examples versus the images in order to keep the matrix thread true to the topic of discussion.

In my humble opinion, your use of columns "tune, empty, tow, tow time" are wise. As Leonard said, the tune is a piece of the puzzle when selecting a turbo or path to a better performing truck and may help define the owners view of "better". I like your use of the "turbo" column as well. Perhaps we can get some of the KC customers to populate the matrix. People like @akcooper9 , @Colorado350 , @Wes444 , @Lewis50 , @Abinsur , @PiTown Pi , @7.3Shortbus , etc...

Some people may not want to contribute to the FTE community effort, and that is their choice. I would kindly ask them to reconsider though as this is a community effort in order to educate the community on their options available to them. The more input provide to RacinJasonWV in his effort to create a turbo matrix, the better the tool will be for someone to use.

Color coding would be the best option in my opinion, although the colors would need to be considered carefully for people with colorblindness or difficulty seeing different shades of the same color. Perhaps the entire row could be a slightly different shade based on MST, SXE, KC, Garrett, etc... This way there would be no contention or perceived favoritism about turbo choices.

In my opinion, you are absolutely on the right path, but I make a lot of mistakes, so perhaps you should not listen to me...

The RPM column makes sense to me.

Copy paste cells for row 11 are below.
Comp: RR 4x4
Empty Tune: Med Tow
Tow Tune: Heavy Tow
Impression: Responsive from a stop or tip in. Had to keep RPM's & Boost up near 3000 & 30 PSI in order to maintain speed. Frequent downshifts to 4th or 3rd required. Cruise control only worked well on flat terrain. Great setup for someone that doesn't travel far or no interest in spending more.

 

This is outstanding. A compendium of experience with various combos under varying conditions. I would love to contribute, but a diary is going to be necessary, and will take time to accurately compile. Such a fantastic idea, Jason...