Can any one please describe to me the physical "ground" path, or the return path to Battery-Negative from the BODY on the Van?

Lights etc are attached to the van body on one side and supplied battery voltage on the other side in order to function of course. But I cannot find the physical path/wires that get that body "ground" side back to the battery-negative terminal.

I turn 82 today and don't get down and under so easy anymore so any guidance would be appreciated.
Thanks
Chuck

 

Maybe these diagrams can help you.

1989 E150 5.L

 

Thanks Resistor, I appreciate the diagrams. I've studied them and see lots of good information but still am unable to determine the Physical Return Path from the Van body back to Battery Negative.. I may have to just run a new one myself.
Chuck

 

There should be multiple ground wires between the engine and the body, and there will be a large gauge ground wire that runs between the engine block to the frame and back to the battery.

 

Thanks Conanski....yeah I hear 'ya, but I just can't seem to find the body to engine ones. I do see the large-gauge wire from the Battery negative terminal to "somewhere under the front of the engine. In the middle of that wire the factory stripped off the insulation and applied a cable clamp and screwed it to the frame. Seems to me that when I was a kid we used to remove these 3-point cables and replace them with two separate cables....but that was long long ago in a land far away.....memory?

 

In pic 2.

It looks like G100 is your most direct battery to ground connection (lower left on diagram)

G means ground and 100 is the most forward on the body. As the numbers rise from there. 201 Being the dash.

I would look there first. Have you tried removing the battery to get a better view?

If you are unable to. You may try to run a ground from the negative battery post directly to the frame... I just don't know if you need that though.

In picture four there is also a mark for "Battery Ground Pigtail Connector"

That may be easier to see.

 

HI RESISTOR........MY RESPONSES IN CAPS BELOW.

It looks like G100 is your most direct battery to ground connection (lower left on diagram)

G100 ON MY VAN IS THE CONNECTION TO THE FRONT PART OF THE ENGINE DIRECTLY THROUGH A LARGE GAUGE WIRE FROM THE BATTERY NEGATIVE TERMINAL. THE SCHEMATIC IS NOT QUITE CORRECT IN THIS REGARD AS THE CABLE STARTS AT THE BATTERY NEGATIVE POST AND GOES DOWN A COUPLE FEET TO A PLACE WHERE THE INSULATION HAS BEEN STRIPPED BACK AND A COMPRESSION TYPE CABLE CLAMP INSTALLED (FACTORY JOB) AND THE CABLE CONTINUES ON ANOTHER COUPLE FEET TO A BOLT IN THE LOWER FRONT OF THE ENGINE WHICH I HAVE NOT SEEN YET......GETTING UNDER THE VAN IS TOUGH FOR ME.

G means ground and 100 is the most forward on the body. As the numbers rise from there. 201 Being the dash.

REALLY DO APPRECIATE THIS INFO AS I WAS COMPLETELY UNAWARE OF IT. I BELIEVE I HAVE LOCATED G201.

I would look there first. Have you tried removing the battery to get a better view?

I'M PHYSICALLY INCAPABLE OF LIFTING THE BATTERY UP AND OUT OF THE VAN.

If you are unable to. You may try to run a ground from the negative battery post directly to the frame... I just don't know if you need that though.

I'M IN PROCESS OF SOMETHING SIMILAR TO THIS....I ONLY GET A FEW MINUTES PER DAY TO DO THIS WORK AS I'M A 24/7 CAREGIVER AND MY LADY HAS FIRST CALL ON MY TIME. I WILL GET IT DONE, IT JUST TAKES A FEW DAYS.

In picture four there is also a mark for "Battery Ground Pigtail Connector"
That may be easier to see

I SEE THIS ITEM, IT IS ATTACHED TO THE BATTERY NEGATIVE AND FEEDS BACK INTO A HARNESS. THERE IS A THING THAT LOOKS LIKE AN INLINE FUSE HOLDER BUT I HAVEN'T BEEN ABLE TO GET IT OPEN YET. THERE IS ALSO ANOTHER MOLDED IN BULGE, MAYBE SOME KIND OF FUSABLE LINK OR SPLICE?....DON'T KNOW. CAN YOU TELL ME ANYTHING ABOUT THIS "BATTERY GROUND PIGTAIL CONNECTOR" AND WHERE IT GOES AND WHAT CIRCUIT IT IS FOR?

ALSO, DO YOU KNOW THE DEFINITION OF "GROUND" IN THESE SCHEMATICS"? IN MY ELECTRONIC TECHNICIAN PAST IT WAS ALWAYS THE METAL CHASSIS. IN A VEHICLE IS THAT THE FRAME, THE ENGINE, THE BODY, OR THE FRONT FENDERS.GRILL ASSY, OR POSSIBLY SOME COMBINATION OF THEM TO INCLUDE SPECIFIC "GROUND STRAPS"?

MANY THANKS FOR YOUR ASSISTANCE.
CHUCK

 

Hey @CABGx3,

I'm glad to be able to help.

It looks like G100 is your most direct battery to ground connection (lower left on diagram)

G100 ON MY VAN IS THE CONNECTION TO THE FRONT PART OF THE ENGINE DIRECTLY THROUGH A LARGE GAUGE WIRE FROM THE BATTERY NEGATIVE TERMINAL. THE SCHEMATIC IS NOT QUITE CORRECT IN THIS REGARD AS THE CABLE STARTS AT THE BATTERY NEGATIVE POST AND GOES DOWN A COUPLE FEET TO A PLACE WHERE THE INSULATION HAS BEEN STRIPPED BACK AND A COMPRESSION TYPE CABLE CLAMP INSTALLED (FACTORY JOB) AND THE CABLE CONTINUES ON ANOTHER COUPLE FEET TO A BOLT IN THE LOWER FRONT OF THE ENGINE WHICH I HAVE NOT SEEN YET......GETTING UNDER THE VAN IS TOUGH FOR ME

I just looked a while for a picture of where the main ground strap connects to the engine but I couldn't find one. My point is that it goes directly to where you are saying. It is in the middle of the block on the passenger side.
I can't believe I know this but I'm quite certain as I've been pouring through videos, pictures and posts of everything 7.5L 460 in preparation to possibly buy a 3rd Gen E series van. E-350 specifically. I found an old FBI one here in California but it owes $1,300 in back registration fees but I've got the seller from $2400 down to $900. So It's still $2400... Idk if I'm going to bite though.

Back to the topic though. I don't actually have an 1987 E-350 to check these questions. I'm just trying to help out with my mechanic software.

In picture four there is also a mark for "Battery Ground Pigtail Connector"
That may be easier to see
I SEE THIS ITEM, IT IS ATTACHED TO THE BATTERY NEGATIVE AND FEEDS BACK INTO A HARNESS. THERE IS A THING THAT LOOKS LIKE AN INLINE FUSE HOLDER BUT I HAVEN'T BEEN ABLE TO GET IT OPEN YET. THERE IS ALSO ANOTHER MOLDED IN BULGE, MAYBE SOME KIND OF FUSABLE LINK OR SPLICE?....DON'T KNOW. CAN YOU TELL ME ANYTHING ABOUT THIS "BATTERY GROUND PIGTAIL CONNECTOR" AND WHERE IT GOES AND WHAT CIRCUIT IT IS FOR?

The battery pigtail connector: Since it's coming from the battery and going into the harness is going to be ground for most everything that that entire harness connects to. In Picture 3 looks like it might be your s100 connection. Refer to the diagram and the location of the pigtail ground and see if the parts line up, Specifically your ECA and Ignition Module.

ALSO, DO YOU KNOW THE DEFINITION OF "GROUND" IN THESE SCHEMATICS"? IN MY ELECTRONIC TECHNICIAN PAST IT WAS ALWAYS THE METAL CHASSIS. IN A VEHICLE IS THAT THE FRAME, THE ENGINE, THE BODY, OR THE FRONT FENDERS.GRILL ASSY, OR POSSIBLY SOME COMBINATION OF THEM TO INCLUDE SPECIFIC "GROUND STRAPS"?

Yes Ground is Earth and the metal of your chassis and block and everything pretty much electrically conductive and not "Hot" is going to be ground. Your Roof is ground. Your floor is ground. As it's all going to be taking a path back to the negative terminal on your battery through the grounded connections. The stronger the ground the better the connection so sometimes as in the rear taillights or fuel pump a ground wire is ran forward somewhere with a wire to get closer to the battery.

As it seems like you are beginning to unwrap your wiring harness... and I have done that myself and know how much work it is. On my last car I pulled my entire harness and rebuilt it. There are a lot of things that become destroyed when you begin to open your harness. I found that in an older car the wires were melted together and separating them meant having to rewrap and reinsulate them. It's a lot of taping and tying of different types of specialty tape.

Just to try to save you from any possible wiring issues would you mind sharing your purpose?

 

Hi Resistor...
Thanks again for your replies...they help a lot.

The purpose of my concern with grounds started in the thread "

1989 E150 5.0 EFI Fuel system question"

but it went kinda sideways so I thought I would approach from a different angle and started THIS thread.
Presently I think I've narrowed it down to "my body to engine connection is weak and I am in process to running two new wires by stripping the ends of old household extension cords and wrapping the two wires together to be one larger conductor. I will try to run one jumper from Battery Negative to G201 if I can find my way through the "firewall". And the other from G201 to a body screw that mounts the kickplate near the Drivers left foot.
All this hoping to establish a more efficient return for all three of my fuel pumps. so the selected tank pump will properly prime the Fuel Selector Valve Reservoir and the HP pump will do it's thing and the durn engine will start every time with minimal cranking.

Aside, I may have to install a check valve in the HP line between filter and rail and may go ahead and "T" off that point with a sensor to run an in-cab Fuel Pressure Gauge.

But the issue is my pumps are not getting full battery voltage and a good return so they can produce at their best. Hopefully running my two new wires will help the problem.

Sounds like a good deal on that FBI van. Good luck there if you go for it.
BTW, I was raised In SoCal from 7yo till I joined the USMC in 1955. Now in St. Petersburg Florida.
Regards,
Chuck

 

You got it CABGx3.

It seems like you are very deep into this rabbit hole.

You need the solid acronym KISS.

You don't need to redesign the entire fuel line system yet.

Just keep it simple.

Take a multimeter and back probe your fuel pump to the frame.

Just check it right there. And if in doubt throw a jumper wire right to the frame with a sheet metal screw.

Keep it super simple and just focus on the problem... the original problem. Fuel.

" When I switch to my rear tank the Selector Valve reservoir runs dry and the engine quits."

"Now, my question is....why does the fuel pressure build up with the engine running with Starter Fluid assistance and it won't build up with the engine just cranking?"
YOU DON'T NEED TO KNOW THIS... THIS ISN'T YOUR PROBLEM. This is making a new problem, respectfully.
Really though... this is all MAGIC. How these things truly work. How your pour some liquid down a pipe and you end up flying at 70 down the highway until you hit the sea... it's MAGIC! Just make it work the way the engineering gods planned it to work

When your level of awareness exceeds the maker and you fully philosophically understand the weaknesses of the system and see how you can fix... then mod it... but only then... or you are going to find yourself having a tea party with the mad hatter underneath your van for the next few months.

Conanski said
Your rear in-tank pump is dead and gone, RIP.
Your front in-tank fuel pump appears to have 1 foot in the grave as well but it could also be that corroded wiring or grounds are dropping some voltage on the circuit.

Anyone with that kind of direct sentence structure should be listened to.

Start at the beginning here... just reset...

Change your rear - in tank fuel pump and filter.

Changer your Front just for the hell of it.

Clean your injectors.

You can take voltage readings at the connectors to see if signal is appearing and that's it.

Just focus on the fuel.

KISS

Keep it simple stupid.

And BTW thank you for your insight on the deal with this Van I've been up all night researching every single part and process to rebuild it.

My biggest concern right now is the 8 mpg I'll be expecting and if that's even worth it.

I'll be in the van $2,200 to buy and then I have to make it pass smog.

That could cost me another $1K realistically.

It is running lean so I can tell that I will probably need to flush the entire fuel system, then put new spark plugs in it and give it an oil change.

Then cross my fingers.

So just debating whether I need another set of problems right now.

=) I would love it.

 

I'm going to install my jumpers from Battery Negative to G201 and then on to the body screw near the driver's left foot. Then I will try starting the engine and see how it goes.

About your new toy....don't know your age but I can tell from experience that resurrecting things when you are young is fun....but as time passes it becomes an unpleasant chore.

I'm still wondering where the body-bone connects to the engine-bone (on my van).....as the old song goes

Regards,
Chuck

 

Hey Chuck,

I hear you on rolling the eyes about repairs. At some point it really becomes work... the reality is that these vans are tools and any tool that is used will eventually break... in the case of cars they break even if you don't use them.

I am back an forth in my head right now about the van. I haven't bought it yet. I'm not too young anymore and the last car I resurrected was just stolen right in the COVID lockdown.

Plus it won't really be a toy for me. It needs to work. At the state it's in now. I'm going to have to work in order for it to even think of working. Basically I have to smog it and pay the $1,300 in back fees that are due.

I don't think I actually need that problem right now.

About the fuel pump. Are you able to just stop using that tank and just siphon the gas to the other tank?

I mean if it's this much of a wall... maybe it's not worth the hassle. If it runs, drives and stops... do you really need the second tank to save you from pulling over and stretching your legs?

Also it seems like you want to be extra sure about what direction to go. And this is a job that requires really good skills of automotive diagnostics.

I'm a self taught mechanic so my biggest diagnostic hero is "Scanner Danner" on youtube.

He has a lot of videos that I've learned from... I searched https://www.youtube.com/results?sear...ford+fuel+pump

You will need to possibly invest in some diagnostic tools but the power of knowledge can save you a lot.

I believe the main ground strap on your van is on the passenger side. I think it's a flat braided strap that runs from the middle of the block on the left (passenger) side to somewhere up from that.

 

Thanks for the comeback Resistor.....

Your van.....I'm getting the vibe that you should pass on this one.....I really don't understand a vehicle "owing" the state of California any money, but hey, "it's California". But with all the upfront cost and the identifiable repair costs and the potential unknown costs....methinks you would be better off putting all that money into something better. Of course you'll always have that "wish I would have done it" feeling, but that's life.

My van.....I replaces both tanks and all three fuel pumps a few years ago...I know, I know, they can still be bad, but plans are the same, install the two new ground jumpers and see what happens, just haven"t had the time yet...my Lady takes precedence.

My problem could still maybe just be my Battery, when cranking the volts may drop so low the pumps wont perform enough....a thought. Next time I could put a jumper on it and see how that goes.

TTYL
Chuck

 

Hey Chuck,

Yeah I'm going to wait three days to make the van decision. I'm looking for a workhorse and the ford 460 is one but unless I'm prepared to pay and take time off work do work on it...

Ok... When I was resurrecting my last car I ran into a problem like this. I spent months going nowhere.

It basically came down to a Map sensor that I replaced but was dead from the start. Since I didn't know how to get OEM parts I ended up buying a Rock Auto cheap MAP sensor that I installed but never worked.

I didn't know how to test it so I kept going in other directions.

The first thing that came up in my mind after I read your last response though was the fuel pressure regulator.
If the pressure regulator is fine then understanding how to check your fuel pumps by using a multimeter would be where I go next.

In the last post with Scanner Danner tactics. He is able to confirm or deny the Ground, the control and the working or not working of the pump.

 

To the meat of this thread, "all of the metallic components of the van which do not specifically have positive battery applied to them" cannot be considered reliably at "ground" potential unless they are intentionally hooked together by approved electrical grounding means. Preferably, as Resistor mentioned, by a braided metal strap made specifically for this purpose. A diagram explaining all of this, and the location of each interconnect is what I seek. It must exist somewhere but just not in the publications or websites I've researched. If anyone knows of such a diagram, or other explanation please let me know. Thanks.

Regards,
Chuck