I would like to offer a counter perspective. Please, do not interpret it as argumentative, I assure you it is not. It is intended as representing one other side, of a mulit-sided coin - only.
TIA,
Mike.

There is an old saying that unfortunately NO ONE is exempt from. It goes like this:

"If you want to play you have to pay."

I propose to you that there is a large flaw in the logic that would rationalize it is in fact ok to not pay, if indeed called upon to do so.

Also, I ask you; if someone WANTED to enter an armed conflict and die, would you want them standing next to you when the stink hit the fan? I wouldn't! Would you want to pay their medical bills for the rest of their lives if they just happened to survive their enlistment? I wouldn't! No one in their right mind [in my opinion] would VOLUNTARILY do such a thing.

And it would create a force no American taxpayer would tolerate because of the innefficiency and expense (Keeping all those suicidal veterans patched up!).

So . . how do we create the force to defend the freedoms you and I take for granted every day?

#1 - We depend on motivated carear oriented young people who really don't think through that "you may get shot" clause in the enlistment contract. With a little luck, they survive long enough to realize the TRUE virtue and value of their work in the military and stick with it. . . even if the shooting starts.

#2 - You draft those folks who can't grasp the "you play - you pay" concept.

It's not slavery - it is survival.

 

There is one other thing I would like to share.

It is not opinion.

Regardless of your branch of the service. Regardless of how you got in that branch of service. Regardless of any political decisions that may have gotten you into a combat situation:

When the two way shooting starts, men stand and fight for one reason: Their buddys. The ones that are there with them.

Nobody is thinking of defending the IRS, FBI, CIA, The NAACP, NRA, HGI, or any other alphabet soup.

I don't know why this came out. Perhaps it was the tooooo many dead friends that definitely didn't deserve to die, but did it anyway.

FWIW.

 

I contend that two to four years of public service should be mandatory as a rite of passage into adulthood. The discipline, teamwork, and sense of accomplishment are priceless. It would make a better world. I don't necessarily think that everyone should be in the shootin' service, but some are going to have to be. Unfortunately, it is part of society back to prehistory that societies need warriors to protect them. To refuse is to exclude oneself from the benefits of society.

 

When I turned 18, I regestered for the draft, as did my friends. Our general attitude was - If I am called, I will go. When I was called I went as an uneducated, untrained, undisciplined young man with no clear vision of my future. The Army tought me discipline, the meaning of responsibility and comradeship, trained me in electronics and let me work on the best equipment in the world. When I left after two years, the G.I. Bill paid for my college.
Call that "SLAVERY" or "EVIL" if you want, but I credit it with giving me the tools I used to build a good life - call that "Sugarcoat" if you like.
Dono

 

I think 2 years of the military would do everyone some good. Would it work? I think it would be more trouble than its worth.

We elect people that are talking heads for special intrests groups and lobbyists. These people control ones that control the military. You all dont think the oil companies have GW in their pockets?? America is a land of greed, and the military a tool bought with a national credit card.
Even if I am wrong, if that is truly what I believe, I am still a conscientious objector, right?

when I said "dennis" in the earlier post, I meant ken. sorry bout that.

 

The military is commanded by a civilain... the president. However, don't get to thinking that we would be starting more wars if it was not so. The military is more reluctant to go to war than recent presidents have been. It's not the politcians that have thier families disrupted for a deployment.

Objecting to political reasons DOES NOT qualify for C.O. status. Having verifiable core beliefs against violence or war in any form at any level will. I can't recite the regulations at this time, but just believing we are at war over oil won't do it.

BTW, I don't believe oil has anything to do with this.

 

Have you ever defended a country? Made decisions effecting National Security? I'm not trying to throw stones here, I am curious to find out what experience/knowledge you are basing your position on.




Ther is no question that you have a very valid point here. The question is; What is done about it. You seem to be suggesting "non participation" as a solution. I do not understand how that will help - only aggrivate the situation by NOT raising your voice and casting your vote.




Please don't forget the blood of hundreds of thousands of men and women. They are the currency REALLY used to pay that credit card debt. I figure I owe it to them to fight to solve the problems - not hide.

Oh, and DUDE - You speak of greed? Are you not looking to save your *** without considering the implications to others (fellow Americans) *especially* those before you who have fought and died defending a country that was giving them a VERY hard time at home. . . the blacks, the Indians, the Asians, and the Muslims ??? Take a look at the recorded history of this country!!



Absolutely NOT. Ignorance is never an acceptable excuse. *For the record* I am NOT CALLING YOU STUPID. I am saying however that you have formed your position using incomplete and biased information and you have not opened yourself up to the truth. THAT is not a reason; it is a poor excuse.

. . . Hey, remember, you asked.

 

Yeah, I know, I threw myself to the wolves on this one. The main thing I was after was "Objecting to political reasons DOES NOT qualify for C.O. status. Having verifiable core beliefs against violence or war in any form at any level will."

I say that the required military thing wouldnt work because I know alot of poo-poo heads that would whine and fuss the whole time, making it harder to get things done.

And I suppose I *might* be out to save my own butt. I certainly understand the thing about the minorities. Just a bit of info- 50% of those on the front lines in desert storm were "of color" as my source says, while only 33% of those enlisted were "of color" and of those 33%, only 12% of officers are black. Not that it matters in my situatoin, just some numbers I ran across in my quest for answers.

 

.

Yea, well notice that no one is calling you a coward. It took SERIOUS guts to make the post you made - and then come back and see yourself raked over the coals.

On a personal note; that is why I am not ranting and raving. You ARE seeking higher (further) understanding, and whether you currently realize it or not, even your own morals are telling you you need to rethink your position.

I truly believe you have the moral fiber and the courage to make one hell of a soldier.




Now, I CAN see how you reached that conclusion



They need; The Marine Corps. Holy COW would the USMC ever break them of that !!



Ther is NOTHING wrong with self-protective instincts. You have certainly demonstrated the courage necessary for self evaluation of the actual facts. Spend a little quiet quality time with yourself and have a hear to heart talk about the appropriate level you manifest physically though.

I can fully believe your numbers based on history and personal observation. We as a Nation have not yet embraced the "their blood is red white and blue TOO" fact of the matter.

In closing I would like to share a personal prospective I have seen echoed time and time again - even in hospitals full of mutilated GI's:

"I won't fight for that A&&^hole Bush (or wheoever the president is at the time) and especially NOT the likes of a Jane Fonda. But I will fight and die for their right to be who they are and to voice their opinions publicly."

There is a whole lifetimes worth of lessons in that.

 

First, statistics can be used to spin anything. Calculating statistics is easy. Defining and Interperating the data used is the hard part and why most stats are useless.

Second, Desert Storm was an all-volunenteer force. Soldiers choose a MOS (Mission Occupational Specialty, aka: thier job) when entering the miltary. If they chose a combat arms branch it's no wonder they "were on the front lines".

Third, 12% of the officers being black is inline with the population of the U.S. I hope your not trying to show discrimination here.

Fourth, the Army has a far greater percentage of minorites than the general U.S. population. Remember it is an all-volunteer force. That being said, no one can say minorites as a group aren't doing that part to serve this country.

Also, recent operations have not had "front lines". It has been asymetric warfare. They were not linear battlefields. That's why supply convoys and support troops are in just as much if not more danger than the combat arms.

 

^^ what he said ^^

Good point chad, numbers are very easy to spin. those were just some #'s I ran across, and I have no clue as to what it is really like in battle.

 

You do now.

Remember; This is the Pig Pen. I'm pretty sure there are a bunch of Armed Forces Combat Veterans here that would not hesitaite a second to speak up if I was talking . . . smack.

FWIW.

 

Ok, this reminds me of the old punchline "Gee, I don't even know what a Concientious Objector is, and now I ARE one!" As WAHOO said, having fuzzy objections to our political system doesn't qualify a person for CO status. Look, what's to prevent YOU from forming a big "special interest" group and hiring a lobbyist? Do you think it's wrong for the CEO of a giant corporation that employs thousands of Americans (or maybe over a million, like WalMat) to have the ear of the President, or Senators, or Representatives? Who's more entitled to that attention? You get your chance every four years to change the President, just like everyone else. Speaking of electing "talking heads", do YOU have an MBA, or know how to fly a modern jet fighter? I disagree that we elect talking heads. I believe we elect people who can persuade more voters than their oponents that they can properly represent their constituents. (I think they often BECOME talking heads after spending more than a couple of terms in office. It's very healthy to turn over the presidency absolutely every eight years; we ought to be doing the same with everyone in elected office.)

Anyway, the bottom line here is that you don;t have anything to worry about. You're not going to be drafted. Enjoy playing in your band, and going to school, and don't fret anymore about it.

 

That could be addressed, and in worse case scenario, if you were forced to serve, you could be kept out of combat for that status.

Dan Q

 

First of all, I don't think you have to worry about being drafted anytime soon. Secondly, I agree wholeheartedly with those who recommend mandatory millitary service for young adults.

Now, if you want to know what it's really like to be a CO in the army during wartime, I'll tell you a little story.

I joined the US Army in 1988 at the age of 19 just for the fact that I really didn't have anything better to do at the time. Even though I scored well on my ASVAB, I chose the Infantry because "that's where the action is". After basic training and AIT I got married and had a daughter at FT. Riley, KS where I was now serving as a Bradley Fighting Vehicle driver. When I was called to deploy to Operation Desert Storm (Shield at the time) I wasn't necessarily hip to the idea of leaving my young family to possibly never return, but I did for many reasons: I had made a promise to do so if asked to, and I felt a moral obligation to my country and those who served before me, just to name a few. During my deployment, we led the attack into Iraq and Kuwait, facing enemy tanks, artillery, and infantry foot soldiers, some of whose last sights were a 26 ton tracked vehicle bearing down on them. I have never thought of myself as bloodthirsty, and generally hold human life in high regard, but sometimes things just have to be done. Incidentally, I am also the only son/grandson in my family.

Now to the CO part. About a month proir to deployment, a young buck private joined our Company. I can't even recall his name, but he was a good looking and seemingly intelligent kid. I assume that he had many options when he enlisted, but chose the Infantry because of the inflated enlistment bonuses and college money available. Well, once in-country, he decided he was a CO. Can you imagine??? Someone voluntarily joins...The Infantry of all things...and then decides he has a moral objection to performing the duties he swore to do. Much to his surprise, I'm sure, he was not transferred to a REMF unit, or outprocessed. He remained with our unit, sans weapon, and was given every lowly detail imaginable. He was also quite brutaly assaulted on a daily basis. I understand that he went to Leavenworth when the rest of us came home. I don't feel one ounce of remorse for him. He volunteered, he got scared, and he reneged on his word. I hope he lives in constant shame for the remainder of his life. He had an obligation because he enlisted.

Now, you will almost certainly never be drafted. As far as I'm concerned, you have no obligation to enlist. But if your worst fears come true, you do have an obligation to your country and to yourself to pull yourself up by your bootstraps and act like a man.