Timing chain question
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Lead Driver
Joined: Oct 2016
Posts: 6,185
Likes: 633
From: Houston/Sugar Land
Timing chain question
I am replacing my fan clutch and water pump. It was suggested that I also replace the timing chain since most of the work is done to easily do it. I think that is a good idea. In looking on Rockauto only a few are standard set ups. The rest seem to be for performance or racing. I am only interested in reliability. The standard ones are priced much cheaper. Which type would give me the reliability is my question. I can get the one below immediately and I would like to buy it now. Same brand as RA sells only different number. Truck has 90K on it now. Thanks for the help. Sandy
https://www.oreillyauto.com/detail/b...hain+set&pos=0
https://www.oreillyauto.com/detail/b...hain+set&pos=0
Cargo Master
Joined: Jul 2009
Posts: 2,541
Likes: 54
From: Des Moines
Cloyes is a good brand and will provide the reliability you’re looking for. When we do timing chain service at work, Cloyes is the brand we use. It’s also the set I put on my ‘91 5.8 at 135k and I put another 30k on the truck before selling it without any indication of problems with the timing.
Just don’t be fooled into thinking you need a gear puller to remove the old gears - they will come off with a little wd40 and some gentle persuasion with a small prybar or screwdriver.
Just don’t be fooled into thinking you need a gear puller to remove the old gears - they will come off with a little wd40 and some gentle persuasion with a small prybar or screwdriver.
Tuned
Joined: Apr 2007
Posts: 372
Likes: 15
From: Central Minnesota
Timing chain is a good bet since it's "open" I change them on my 460s every 150k or so, one has over 500,000 and going strong, can't say to much 'bout the body
though.... I use a performance roller chain, since it's much less likely to stretch with wear, take note before you pull the chain apart, and if you can, put a degree wheel on it to measure the wear or "slop" in the chain. That's the amount your camshaft is retarded. (cam not the owner/operator) Quality oils with changes, of course, slow wear etc Larry
though.... I use a performance roller chain, since it's much less likely to stretch with wear, take note before you pull the chain apart, and if you can, put a degree wheel on it to measure the wear or "slop" in the chain. That's the amount your camshaft is retarded. (cam not the owner/operator) Quality oils with changes, of course, slow wear etc Larry
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Lead Driver
Joined: Oct 2016
Posts: 6,185
Likes: 633
From: Houston/Sugar Land
Timing chain is a good bet since it's "open" I change them on my 460s every 150k or so, one has over 500,000 and going strong, can't say to much 'bout the body
though.... I use a performance roller chain, since it's much less likely to stretch with wear, take note before you pull the chain apart, and if you can, put a degree wheel on it to measure the wear or "slop" in the chain. That's the amount your camshaft is retarded. (cam not the owner/operator) Quality oils with changes, of course, slow wear etc Larry
though.... I use a performance roller chain, since it's much less likely to stretch with wear, take note before you pull the chain apart, and if you can, put a degree wheel on it to measure the wear or "slop" in the chain. That's the amount your camshaft is retarded. (cam not the owner/operator) Quality oils with changes, of course, slow wear etc Larry
Thanks Tedster
Laughing Gas
Joined: Oct 2014
Posts: 946
Likes: 186
From: Carnation, Wah
Yup, Cloyes here, too- removal was as hard as removing the cam bolt, and the new chain
had no slop in it whatsoever, whereas the old one had the 'limit' of 1/2" of play.
Took far less time than getting the cover off.
t
had no slop in it whatsoever, whereas the old one had the 'limit' of 1/2" of play.
Took far less time than getting the cover off.
t
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Lead Driver
Joined: Oct 2016
Posts: 6,185
Likes: 633
From: Houston/Sugar Land
I found a video from Eric the car guy that showed how to measure the timing chain slop. I did it on my truck and my wear was about 5.5 degrees. The max is anything over 7 degrees. If I average it out 5.5 degrees equals 16,360 miles per degree is what my wear is. If these numbers hold true throughout the 7 degree life, I should have about 20K-25K life left on the timing chain. With my mileage use that will last a long time.
I got into this because of a suspected fan clutch. I have replaced it and my grinding issue is gone. I was going to do the water pump and the timing chain was recommended by a user here that said 90% of the timing chain work was done by doing the water pump. Now I have a new water pump and the current one is working fine. I have not bought the timing chain set yet. My thought now is if it isn't broken why fix it now. I don't mind preventative maintenance but I'm thinking of shelving the water pump until I really need it and doing the timing chain at that time also or whichever comes first. Does this sound reasonable to wait a while to do the pump and chain or would you do it now. I honestly don't want to do it now if I don't have to but I will. Any expert advice as to how to proceed? Sandy
I got into this because of a suspected fan clutch. I have replaced it and my grinding issue is gone. I was going to do the water pump and the timing chain was recommended by a user here that said 90% of the timing chain work was done by doing the water pump. Now I have a new water pump and the current one is working fine. I have not bought the timing chain set yet. My thought now is if it isn't broken why fix it now. I don't mind preventative maintenance but I'm thinking of shelving the water pump until I really need it and doing the timing chain at that time also or whichever comes first. Does this sound reasonable to wait a while to do the pump and chain or would you do it now. I honestly don't want to do it now if I don't have to but I will. Any expert advice as to how to proceed? Sandy
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Fleet Mechanic
Joined: Aug 2015
Posts: 1,838
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From: Candy Mountain
Well, I would not have opened it up without cause myself... but things being what they are I would replace the timing set and water pump. Reason being, the labor and time are worth more to me than the parts, which is to say I would rather do it once now (you have to spend time putting it back together either way) then having to spend the time again in a few years (probably not at a time of your choosing I might add) because I didn't take the opportunity now. But this kind of thinking can lead to a lot of unnecessary work. That said the original parts are probably fine to go back in and give many more miles of service, and if you are not inclined to replace them, then put it back together and ride on.
Tuned
Joined: Apr 2007
Posts: 372
Likes: 15
From: Central Minnesota
I wouldn't bother with it now. Life has enough going on w/o things that are "nice" to do, but don't really need attention. Nothing is going to break or fail over the winter. We all have to prioritize our projects, and must do trumps, kinda nice to do........ I've built engines professionally for over 50 years and if it's "down" for a reason, do it right. But, if it works, leave 'er lie. My 2 bits. Larry
Thread Starter
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Lead Driver
Joined: Oct 2016
Posts: 6,185
Likes: 633
From: Houston/Sugar Land
Well, I would not have opened it up without cause myself... but things being what they are I would replace the timing set and water pump. Reason being, the labor and time are worth more to me than the parts, which is to say I would rather do it once now (you have to spend time putting it back together either way) then having to spend the time again in a few years (probably not at a time of your choosing I might add) because I didn't take the opportunity now. But this kind of thinking can lead to a lot of unnecessary work. That said the original parts are probably fine to go back in and give many more miles of service, and if you are not inclined to replace them, then put it back together and ride on.
Thread Starter
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Lead Driver
Joined: Oct 2016
Posts: 6,185
Likes: 633
From: Houston/Sugar Land
I wouldn't bother with it now. Life has enough going on w/o things that are "nice" to do, but don't really need attention. Nothing is going to break or fail over the winter. We all have to prioritize our projects, and must do trumps, kinda nice to do........ I've built engines professionally for over 50 years and if it's "down" for a reason, do it right. But, if it works, leave 'er lie. My 2 bits. Larry
Post Fiend
Joined: Apr 2002
Posts: 19,311
Likes: 97
From: Waterloo, Iowa
The arithmetic seems sound, but the wear rate isn't linear with stuff like that. Wear tolerances in machinery, bearings and chains and things like that tend to move very slow almost imperceptible, until they do start to show appreciable wear, and then it accelerates rapidly. I kind of disagree that 7° or 8° of stretch is acceptable, I mean it depends on your tolerance or how picky you want to get, but also on whether the factory retarded the camshaft to begin with, and whether any tolerance stackups in the keyways and gear sets were working against you.
The rule of thumb is it takes about 4° of camshaft phasing change to feel it in the seat of your pants. If the camshaft is retarded from the factory (not uncommon) plus add on top of that 7° of timing set slop, it starts to add up. Not trying to argue with you, just some things to think about. What you want to check is the number of degrees the cam centerline is running past TDC on the crank. That shows where the cam is really at including chain stretch. Late valve timing overall isn't really desirable in a street driven car or truck.
The rule of thumb is it takes about 4° of camshaft phasing change to feel it in the seat of your pants. If the camshaft is retarded from the factory (not uncommon) plus add on top of that 7° of timing set slop, it starts to add up. Not trying to argue with you, just some things to think about. What you want to check is the number of degrees the cam centerline is running past TDC on the crank. That shows where the cam is really at including chain stretch. Late valve timing overall isn't really desirable in a street driven car or truck.
Thread Starter
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Lead Driver
Joined: Oct 2016
Posts: 6,185
Likes: 633
From: Houston/Sugar Land
The arithmetic seems sound, but the wear rate isn't linear with stuff like that. Wear tolerances in machinery, bearings and chains and things like that tend to move very slow almost imperceptible, until they do start to show appreciable wear, and then it accelerates rapidly. I kind of disagree that 7° or 8° of stretch is acceptable, I mean it depends on your tolerance or how picky you want to get, but also on whether the factory retarded the camshaft to begin with, and whether any tolerance stackups in the keyways and gear sets were working against you.
The rule of thumb is it takes about 4° of camshaft phasing change to feel it in the seat of your pants. If the camshaft is retarded from the factory (not uncommon) plus add on top of that 7° of timing set slop, it starts to add up. Not trying to argue with you, just some things to think about. What you want to check is the number of degrees the cam centerline is running past TDC on the crank. That shows where the cam is really at including chain stretch. Late valve timing overall isn't really desirable in a street driven car or truck.
The rule of thumb is it takes about 4° of camshaft phasing change to feel it in the seat of your pants. If the camshaft is retarded from the factory (not uncommon) plus add on top of that 7° of timing set slop, it starts to add up. Not trying to argue with you, just some things to think about. What you want to check is the number of degrees the cam centerline is running past TDC on the crank. That shows where the cam is really at including chain stretch. Late valve timing overall isn't really desirable in a street driven car or truck.
Laughing Gas
Joined: Oct 2014
Posts: 946
Likes: 186
From: Carnation, Wah
It's a $20 part to do the chain, but getting that cover off to replace the fasteners for the leaking pump, in my case, took 6 hours
over 3 days, so I did the chain- in the 20 minutes it took.
I would NOT go in there to replace the chain if it wasn't open- waaaay too much 'assle!
I agree- fix what's broke now!
t
over 3 days, so I did the chain- in the 20 minutes it took.
I would NOT go in there to replace the chain if it wasn't open- waaaay too much 'assle!
I agree- fix what's broke now!
t