Starter issues
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Mountain Pass
Joined: Jan 2019
Posts: 200
Likes: 17
From: PNW-Western WA
Starter issues
400 in a 1980 DRW standard cab starts good when cold but after getting up to running temp it barely cranks over. Are there starter motor heat soaking issues on these engines? This is a new to me truck.
Post Fiend
Joined: Apr 2002
Posts: 19,311
Likes: 97
From: Waterloo, Iowa
It can happen to an extent with many engine families. Hot starts are harder than cold starts in some ways. What can kind of confuse things is certain defects can mimic others.
If the ignition timing is over-advanced for example, this can cause starter kickback or hard starting when engine is hot, yet start easy when cold. One way to test for this is to disable the ignition. If it now turns over easily when hot, you've found the problem.
Another common issue is starting and battery ground cables to solenoid, frame, block, etc. If these are original or even kinda old enough to buy tobacco, they needed replacing long ago. Fresh cables of sufficient gauge and clean tight grounds are important for charging and starting.
Also when the starter itself starts to get some age and wear on it, they start to really hog all the current and make starting difficult hot or cold.
If the ignition timing is over-advanced for example, this can cause starter kickback or hard starting when engine is hot, yet start easy when cold. One way to test for this is to disable the ignition. If it now turns over easily when hot, you've found the problem.
Another common issue is starting and battery ground cables to solenoid, frame, block, etc. If these are original or even kinda old enough to buy tobacco, they needed replacing long ago. Fresh cables of sufficient gauge and clean tight grounds are important for charging and starting.
Also when the starter itself starts to get some age and wear on it, they start to really hog all the current and make starting difficult hot or cold.
Post Fiend
Joined: Apr 2002
Posts: 19,311
Likes: 97
From: Waterloo, Iowa
Does the insulation get burned off from extended cranking or something? Moisture would do the rest... Another reason not to crank the starter over for more than a few seconds without letting it cool down. I always looked at worn bearings, the armature would get loosey goosey and maybe start to bind. I think that's why banging on the starter with a hammer will get a few more starts out of them.
Hotshot
Joined: May 2003
Posts: 11,141
Likes: 25
From: south louisiana
Does the insulation get burned off from extended cranking or something? Moisture would do the rest... Another reason not to crank the starter over for more than a few seconds without letting it cool down. I always looked at worn bearings, the armature would get loosey goosey and maybe start to bind. I think that's why banging on the starter with a hammer will get a few more starts out of them.
Post Fiend
Joined: Apr 2002
Posts: 19,311
Likes: 97
From: Waterloo, Iowa
I got fed up with starters lasting a short while, and bought a new one. I didn't know exactly why it was necessary though. The clincher was one well below zero Iowa day after work. Click. I was determined not to change a starter in a parking lot in January, so I brought a propane torch out the next day and warmed it up good and at least got it started and then changed it out on the luxurious cardboard lined concrete floor of my garage.
Hotshot
Joined: May 2003
Posts: 11,141
Likes: 25
From: south louisiana
I got fed up with starters lasting a short while, and bought a new one. I didn't know exactly why it was necessary though. The clincher was one well below zero Iowa day after work. Click. I was determined not to change a starter in a parking lot in January, so I brought a propane torch out the next day and warmed it up good and at least got it started and then changed it out on the luxurious cardboard lined concrete floor of my garage.
We pulled carpet out of a room a few years ago and instead of tossing the whole thing, I cut several pieces to lay on in my shop. It's a lot easier on my old knees too when I have to get down on them.
All I can think of is you got some moisture up inside the starter body cruising down the road and it froze after you parked it. Driving 18 wheelers, you learn quick not to set the trailer brakes after driving in winter when you park. Brake shoes get wet then freeze to the drums when you park and apply the parking brakes. The truck only has parking brakes on one axle and you can rock it back and forth with the clutch to break them loose. Trailers have em on all wheels. Only getting under it with a BFH will break them free.
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Post Fiend
Joined: Apr 2002
Posts: 19,311
Likes: 97
From: Waterloo, Iowa
It might not fail the next day, but it's days are numbered. A "remanufactured" starter gets a new set of brushes, maybe a bearing/bushing, a fresh coat of paint and out the door. Krylon rebuild. The starter current draw should be a good test. Excessive starter current draw (shorted windings?) also attenuates the ignition spark output right when it's needed the most.
It's kind of funny, I bought a mechanic's creeper a while back, mainly just because I figured I needed one. But I don't really use it that much. Cardboard works good, has some insulation from the cold floor in the winter, and then just throw it away when done.
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Hotshot
Joined: May 2003
Posts: 11,141
Likes: 25
From: south louisiana
That's how I figured it too, extreme cold will surely put stuff to the test. I believe your theory on the starter field coils has a lot of merit. Burned insulation on the windings is the culprit I reckon. Starters get abused, that's why they fail, and get cored. A poorly tuned engine, and watch people start leaning on the starter for 30 seconds at a time over and over. "Try it now!!"
It might not fail the next day, but it's days are numbered. A "remanufactured" starter gets a new set of brushes, maybe a bearing/bushing, a fresh coat of paint and out the door. Krylon rebuild. The starter current draw should be a good test. Excessive starter current draw (shorted windings?) also attenuates the ignition spark output right when it's needed the most.
It's kind of funny, I bought a mechanic's creeper a while back, mainly just because I figured I needed one. But I don't really use it that much. Cardboard works good, has some insulation from the cold floor in the winter, and then just throw it away when done.
It might not fail the next day, but it's days are numbered. A "remanufactured" starter gets a new set of brushes, maybe a bearing/bushing, a fresh coat of paint and out the door. Krylon rebuild. The starter current draw should be a good test. Excessive starter current draw (shorted windings?) also attenuates the ignition spark output right when it's needed the most.
It's kind of funny, I bought a mechanic's creeper a while back, mainly just because I figured I needed one. But I don't really use it that much. Cardboard works good, has some insulation from the cold floor in the winter, and then just throw it away when done.
Haven't seen the insides of a starter in a long time to see what the insulation looks like (I picture the varnish they're painted with ) but once the metal gets a patina on it (copper I'm picturing) the resistance goes up as the current flows over the surface. (or so I was told) You're exactly right on how starters get "rebuilt" in a factory. Used to be small mom and pop starter/alternator shops in every town. Ain't seen one in a long time here. Used to have two here in the town I live outside of. They've been gone now for about 10 years.
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Mountain Pass
Joined: Jan 2019
Posts: 200
Likes: 17
From: PNW-Western WA
I will get under it this weekend. Have some new tires/wheels to install so that will make things easier to access I am guessing. I got the rig from my father-in-law and he only used it for heavy hauling so it sat quite a bit up here in the wet NW. Thanks for the feedback.
Senior User
Joined: Jul 2011
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I'm having the same problem with my 351M (400 crank, trailer cam, rocker rollers). I haven't tried the test with no ign yet, but the starter is from the original engine (40+ years old). So why not just buy a gear reduction starter?
Hotshot
Joined: May 2003
Posts: 11,141
Likes: 25
From: south louisiana
Hotshot
Joined: May 2003
Posts: 11,141
Likes: 25
From: south louisiana
No. They're the same engine basically. The 351M was a destroked 400. Everything's the same except for the crank and pistons.