Getting harder to start cold..
Thread Starter
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Mountain Pass
Joined: Jan 2019
Posts: 170
Likes: 5
Getting harder to start cold..
'05 excursion limited rwd, 6.0 diesel. It's getting harder to start when cold. Takes a long crank cycle to start, some times needing a second glow plug warm up. During our recent camping trip it failed to even kick in the starter, making me fear we were going to be stranded without a way to tow our trailer home.
What are the first things that I should be looking into?
What are the first things that I should be looking into?
Fleet Mechanic
Joined: Jan 2017
Posts: 1,667
Likes: 182
A long crank and starter not engaging are two separate issues with a 6.0, unless your started has slowly started to spin at a lower RPM. So, how’s the starter been acting since it starts hard? Has it spun the engine over fast? Or slow? Other questions:
1. Any codes?
2. Oil changed on time with Motorcraft filter?
3. Fuel filters changed on time with Motorcraft filters?
4. Any oil leaks down the back of the motor or in the valley?
mods may want to put this over in the 6.0 forum. Speaking of which, have you looked through the tech folder over there? Lots to learn from that tech forum and the 6.0 guys are always willing to help!
1. Any codes?
2. Oil changed on time with Motorcraft filter?
3. Fuel filters changed on time with Motorcraft filters?
4. Any oil leaks down the back of the motor or in the valley?
mods may want to put this over in the 6.0 forum. Speaking of which, have you looked through the tech folder over there? Lots to learn from that tech forum and the 6.0 guys are always willing to help!
Thread Starter
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Mountain Pass
Joined: Jan 2019
Posts: 170
Likes: 5
Starter cranks as fast as it always has. Just had an oil change, not sure what filter the shop used. Did a fuel filter change about 5k miles ago (read it should be done every 10k) but not with Ford filters. No oil leaks.
Fleet Mechanic
Joined: Jan 2017
Posts: 1,667
Likes: 182
I would insist on Motorcraft filters and make sure you have the correct oil filter cap.
So, do you have a way to monitor parameters? And a way to read codes? If not, there’s a slew of them out there and folks like torque pro, forscan phone app, and I used the edge cts monitor. Sounds like to me that you have either an injector issue or a glow plug issue. But, you won’t know unless you have a way to monitor some parameters first. How many miles on the X? Is it stock?
Go go check out the 6.0 forum tech folder and read upon what the various parameters should be, and then get a way to see what they are. It’ll tell you a LOT about the overall health of your 6.0.
So, do you have a way to monitor parameters? And a way to read codes? If not, there’s a slew of them out there and folks like torque pro, forscan phone app, and I used the edge cts monitor. Sounds like to me that you have either an injector issue or a glow plug issue. But, you won’t know unless you have a way to monitor some parameters first. How many miles on the X? Is it stock?
Go go check out the 6.0 forum tech folder and read upon what the various parameters should be, and then get a way to see what they are. It’ll tell you a LOT about the overall health of your 6.0.
FTE Leadership Emeritus
Joined: Sep 2003
Posts: 12,269
Likes: 773
From: Houston, Texas
Is the HPO system fully updated?
Revised Dummy plugs, Standpipes, STC fitting (if you have a 2005 engine)?
When I first got my '05 back in 2013, after driving it 700 miles home, it developed a long crank hot or cold starting. Come to find out it was the dummy plug on the passenger side failing. After sending it off to be studded, it never did it again after they resealed the HPO system.
Revised Dummy plugs, Standpipes, STC fitting (if you have a 2005 engine)?
When I first got my '05 back in 2013, after driving it 700 miles home, it developed a long crank hot or cold starting. Come to find out it was the dummy plug on the passenger side failing. After sending it off to be studded, it never did it again after they resealed the HPO system.
Thread Starter
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Mountain Pass
Joined: Jan 2019
Posts: 170
Likes: 5
I have the motorcraft filters in hand, just need to have the time to swap them in.
That being said, I did notice something I wasn't noticing before. When it is a really long crank (or doesn't start and I re-do the glow plug cycle) it is after initial glow plug cycle with a missing sound. That missing sound is a lower range pump sound. So a pump (not sure which one? fuel?) isn't running while the plugs heat.
So I've run a few iterations where if it is cold, and I don't hear that pump sound, I will not try and start it but re-do the glow cycle another (or two more) times until I hear that pump sound. If the pump runs, viola, it starts after 2 or so seconds. If there isn't the pump sound, it won't start at all after a long time cranking or will take much more than 2 seconds of cranking to start...
I'll see about getting something to read codes. The engine is stock, no mention from the previous owner on any mods, just a turbo replacement (by the dealer).
I'll take a look through the 6.0 forums and see what I can learn there as well.... First item is the fuel filters change (it's been 5K miles on the filters I put in last time, non-motorcraft ones). But doubt that is the reason why that pump is not running on certain start cycles....
That being said, I did notice something I wasn't noticing before. When it is a really long crank (or doesn't start and I re-do the glow plug cycle) it is after initial glow plug cycle with a missing sound. That missing sound is a lower range pump sound. So a pump (not sure which one? fuel?) isn't running while the plugs heat.
So I've run a few iterations where if it is cold, and I don't hear that pump sound, I will not try and start it but re-do the glow cycle another (or two more) times until I hear that pump sound. If the pump runs, viola, it starts after 2 or so seconds. If there isn't the pump sound, it won't start at all after a long time cranking or will take much more than 2 seconds of cranking to start...
I'll see about getting something to read codes. The engine is stock, no mention from the previous owner on any mods, just a turbo replacement (by the dealer).
I'll take a look through the 6.0 forums and see what I can learn there as well.... First item is the fuel filters change (it's been 5K miles on the filters I put in last time, non-motorcraft ones). But doubt that is the reason why that pump is not running on certain start cycles....
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Mountain Pass
Joined: Jan 2019
Posts: 170
Likes: 5
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FTE Leadership Emeritus
Joined: Sep 2003
Posts: 12,269
Likes: 773
From: Houston, Texas
Can you take a Youtube video and post it?
I'd also look into TorquePro if you have an android phone. You have to see what the IPR and HPOP are doing during these extended cranks cold.
If the IPR ever goes to 84% while cranking, you have a leak that the PCM is compensating for by commannding more ICP to get the engine to start. Once it does start the PCM via the IPR will command more ICP to keep the truck running. So instead of seeing 22-24% duty cycle on the IPR at hot idle you may see something closer to the 30% range.
If you can get the OASIS data on the truck, you can see what was done to the engine while under warranty and get a better idea as to what you'll have to address.
Btw, if you look at the passenger side valve cover near the back, do you see a bright yellow sticker or a blue one?
I'd also look into TorquePro if you have an android phone. You have to see what the IPR and HPOP are doing during these extended cranks cold.
If the IPR ever goes to 84% while cranking, you have a leak that the PCM is compensating for by commannding more ICP to get the engine to start. Once it does start the PCM via the IPR will command more ICP to keep the truck running. So instead of seeing 22-24% duty cycle on the IPR at hot idle you may see something closer to the 30% range.
If you can get the OASIS data on the truck, you can see what was done to the engine while under warranty and get a better idea as to what you'll have to address.
Btw, if you look at the passenger side valve cover near the back, do you see a bright yellow sticker or a blue one?
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Thread Starter
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Mountain Pass
Joined: Jan 2019
Posts: 170
Likes: 5
Can you take a Youtube video and post it?
I'd also look into TorquePro if you have an android phone. You have to see what the IPR and HPOP are doing during these extended cranks cold.
If the IPR ever goes to 84% while cranking, you have a leak that the PCM is compensating for by commannding more ICP to get the engine to start. Once it does start the PCM via the IPR will command more ICP to keep the truck running. So instead of seeing 22-24% duty cycle on the IPR at hot idle you may see something closer to the 30% range.
If you can get the OASIS data on the truck, you can see what was done to the engine while under warranty and get a better idea as to what you'll have to address.
Btw, if you look at the passenger side valve cover near the back, do you see a bright yellow sticker or a blue one?
I'd also look into TorquePro if you have an android phone. You have to see what the IPR and HPOP are doing during these extended cranks cold.
If the IPR ever goes to 84% while cranking, you have a leak that the PCM is compensating for by commannding more ICP to get the engine to start. Once it does start the PCM via the IPR will command more ICP to keep the truck running. So instead of seeing 22-24% duty cycle on the IPR at hot idle you may see something closer to the 30% range.
If you can get the OASIS data on the truck, you can see what was done to the engine while under warranty and get a better idea as to what you'll have to address.
Btw, if you look at the passenger side valve cover near the back, do you see a bright yellow sticker or a blue one?
I'll have to check on the ability to get warranty info. And I'll check on that sticker color later today once back from work. What color indicates what?
FTE Leadership Emeritus
Joined: Sep 2003
Posts: 12,269
Likes: 773
From: Houston, Texas
FTE Leadership Emeritus
Joined: Sep 2003
Posts: 12,269
Likes: 773
From: Houston, Texas
Yellow = a 2005 Engine
Blue = a 2004 Engine
Depending on when your was built, you either ended up with the carryover 2004 engine or a 2005 engine. This will help direct diagnostics better.
If you have a 2004 engine, you either need dummy plugs and standpipes or the HPOP is failing and is about to leave you stranded.
If you have a 2005 engine, you either need dummy plugs and standpipes or the STC on the HPOP is failing and is about to leave you stranded.
Thread Starter
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Mountain Pass
Joined: Jan 2019
Posts: 170
Likes: 5
Going to check with the dealer on the report on Thursday. In the mean time, it had 93k miles on it. If the stand pipes, dummy plugs and stc have not been indicated as being replaced before, what brand kit is recommended (or should I go with Ford dealership provided parts)? There are a plethora of providers it seems....
Watching YouTube videos it doesn't seem impossible to do the work. All be it all the maintenance and rebuilds I've done has been on gasoline car and boat engines. If I do it myself, it's just parts and time. If I have someone else do it, what should I expect for a cost?
Watching YouTube videos it doesn't seem impossible to do the work. All be it all the maintenance and rebuilds I've done has been on gasoline car and boat engines. If I do it myself, it's just parts and time. If I have someone else do it, what should I expect for a cost?
Thread Starter
|
Mountain Pass
Joined: Jan 2019
Posts: 170
Likes: 5
FTE Leadership Emeritus
Joined: Sep 2003
Posts: 12,269
Likes: 773
From: Houston, Texas
Going to check with the dealer on the report on Thursday. In the mean time, it had 93k miles on it. If the stand pipes, dummy plugs and stc have not been indicated as being replaced before, what brand kit is recommended (or should I go with Ford dealership provided parts)? There are a plethora of providers it seems....
Watching YouTube videos it doesn't seem impossible to do the work. All be it all the maintenance and rebuilds I've done has been on gasoline car and boat engines. If I do it myself, it's just parts and time. If I have someone else do it, what should I expect for a cost?
Watching YouTube videos it doesn't seem impossible to do the work. All be it all the maintenance and rebuilds I've done has been on gasoline car and boat engines. If I do it myself, it's just parts and time. If I have someone else do it, what should I expect for a cost?
