true,

get out your Bible and quote directly please, I sure don't remember that.

 

The Gospel of John, Chapter 1, verses 1 thru 4.


You know that!!!! Come on True!

 

I think all bible scholars agree that turning the water into wine was the first miracle. Miracles were performed as a sign that Jesus was the son of God and so that the people would believe.

 

I guess I should have worded it as His first recorded miracle while in His human body. He was with God when the heaven and earth were created so He was doing miracles way before. The water to wine was the one I had in mind. The imaculate conception was defineately a miracle that He was involved in too.
I have read some apocrophal books that have alleged records of Jesus youth. Some of them are way out there with Jesus striking another kid dead for bumping into Him on the street. I also enjoy reading some of the extra books the Catholics use but only as novels.

 

You didn't know that Jesus was a carpenter? I thought everyone knew that.

 

If the wine of the Bible was just fresh grape juice, then how did Noah get drunk drinking his wine?

 

In the bible, the word "wine" can mean either unfermented grape juice or fermented grape juice. You have to take the word in context to know which is which. This link gives more information.
http://www.churchesofchrist.net/auth...stliv/wine.htm

 

A interesting link. But I find a few issues with it.

The alcohol content of the wine has always been a stumbling block for some. That is ok, without question life is better without the need for alcohol or caffine.

This statement bothers me: ." However, notice that their logic takes them further than most of them want to go. Since Jesus produced alcoholic wine (as they claim), then not only would it be morally right to drink it, it would be morally right to produce it, sell it, distribute it, and make a living from it. But since that would most certainly cause someone to stumble, then it must be morally right to cause someone to stumble."

I fully understand about the importance of not making your neighbor stumble. But their are limits to what you can do. If your neighbors wife for example, is smoking hot (and she only wears loose fitting clothing) then because you lust after her it's her fault? Say you have a very sharp mind when it comes to business, if you market an item that people don't really need but they buy anyway with their limited budget are you doing them harm?

When you explore the path of not making your neighbor stumble, then you start to see that everything you do may be a problem for someone else. Most people don't go down this road. Do you leave your keys in your truck? This could cause someone to stumble when they see the keys and think it's time to steal your truck.

Finally, the key is moderation. As Paul said it is ok to drink alcohol so long as you do not drink to the point you are impaired. If one drink impairs you then that is it. If 6 is the limit, 6 it is.

Know your limits, if it causes you to sin, then you must turn away.

 

I don't disagree with the fact that alcohol is a major social ill in our country. I started this thread to bring a an ongoing debate to you guys and I really appreciate the input and the way you all are expressing you various points of view in a gentlemanly manner.
I just drug out my Strong's and here is what is says. All of the times wine is used in the new testament except one refer to # 3631, oinos. Which just basically says wine (lit. or fig.) But two variations of the word are #3630 oinopotes, which is described as a tippler or winebibber ( in my words a person who is getting tipsey). And #3632 oinophlugia, which is described as an overflow, violency and drunkenness. So it would seem the base word oinos is in fact referring to alcoholic beverage.
It is also interesting to note Jesus' response to His mothers request of Him to address the problem of the wine shortage. He replied, What does this have to do with me, My hour has not yet come. Which indicates that He was reluctant to not only get involved but also to begin the miracle working phase of His ministry. It is amusing to note at this point that good old mom knew that she had the situation handled and just told some other guys to get Him whatever he needed.

 

Mary knew who her Son was - she knew He was the Son of God - and was anxious for Him to show everyone His glory. Notice that He did not say, "mother", he said "woman", which implies that He was stating this from his Holy capacity. Even though it sounds like He was scolding her, He really said it with respect (as he would with anyone, because God is no respecter of persons).
I believe also He said "woman" to indicate to future generations that she had no power above any other human being and that she should never be worshiped in such a manner.
Even though "His time had not yet come", He saw the benefit of doing this miracle in private (with only His disciples and mother knowing about it) to let them know He was the Messiah.

On another note (food for thought) as far as miracles go (before His birth) - Who was the king that met Abraham after Abraham had won a victory over the other kings of the land? Was this not Jesus (going by another name at the time)? I know that this is far-reaching...but...Melchizedek? Melchizedek had no father or mother and was without geneology....His name meant King of Righteousness....funny, but He was the King of Sodom!!!

 

Basically, the Bible speaks out against drunkeness many, many times. Proverbs, and lots of the New Testiment speak against being a drunkard. So look at it like this. If you put drinking wine above your relationship with God, it becomes sinful. Keep in mind, I'm speaking from a Christian standpoint. I for one have never had the first drop of an type of alcohol. Never once. It's not because I'm against it, but because I don't want to get caught up in it. If I get hooked on something, it's nearly impossible for me to quit. I know that if I were to get hooked on alcohol, I'd probably be that way the rest of my life. That would make my walk with God very, very difficult. In the same way, the speaks out against drunkeness because it gets in the way of God's plan for your life.

and that's the only thing I've heard out of the Bible about taking wine being ok. IMHO if you drink so much wine that it gets in the way of you and God, you're drinking too much. That's just my conviction, so please don't take it personally.

 

True - I commend you on never having had the taste of alcohol - wish I never got hooked. And I hope you stay "True."

Now - I wish I could stay and see the results of all this, but I now have to go to my other job - one that doesn't pay anything (I'm the boss, though) where there is no computer.

Have a good evening!

 

4.2 I can't disagree with anything you have observed. I do occasionaly enjoy a cold beer on a hot afternoon and my wife drinks a couple bottles of wine a year, 1/2 a glass at a time. I am not trying to justify my position so much as see what other people think about the subject. Most Christians think total abstinence is the only Biblical conclusion. I find just enough evidence to indicate that responsably consuming some alcohol is not a sin. Zero consumption is obviously the safe bet.
Also in addition to Pauls advice to Timothy there are those debateable verses in Ecclesiastes about eat drink and be merry.
Also I must say that ANTTHING you put above your relationship with God is a sin, whether it be alcohol or football or old Ford pickups. This is a balance that I sometimes struggle with in my own life, not with the alcohol, but with the old Fords.
Bigorn I have heard the Melchizidek comparison before and it is great discussion material. I can't say I would go out on a limb either way because I need a little more documentation to take a stand but I don't disagree.

 

After re-reading my post I found an error. Look at what ONE word will do to a post!!!!

What I was supposed to have type was, "....funny, He was WITH the King of Sodom!!!"

Sometimes that one word can change the outcome of what intiates or activates a belief system.

Mechisedek was with the king of Sodom. Were they friends? Were they close? I am still studying this, but not long afterwards Sodom and Gomorrah were utterly destroyed.

Hmmm - this is a thread-hijkack, so I'll leave it alone.

 

Bubba, I just read that link you posted last week. Even though I agree with most of it I have to wonder why the guy only used old testament examples of unfermented grapes to prove his point about the wine at the wedding. Those books were written in Hebrew and the book of John was written in Greek. So wouldn't that be like comparing a phrase translated from Spanish to what the orignal meaning of the word in Russian might have been.
There is no use of wine in the new testament that means excusivly unfermented juice, nor even a use of the word that could really be stretched to mean that. Well meaning people invalidate themselves when they resort to distorting and manufacturing facts in order to prove what they always felt was true. I agree with the dangers and ravages of alcohol and I did my research trying to come to the same conclusion that the writer of that link did. Keeping an open mind and considering all the evidence I just couldn't find evidence that our Lord and Savior did not in some way have alcoholic wine in his presence.
It is also interesting to not how many overweight preachers we have and many very good pastors that are borderline gluttoness. But when talking about the evils of wine they avoid the verses that put drunkeness and gluttony together.