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  #31  
Old 01-10-2019, 04:47 PM
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I'll venture a guess about the why's of the perceived discrepancies ... but first up - I will assume your provided numbers are correct (maybe not?),
but in either case I believe this simplified explanation (making up bogus numbers here) will be helpful:

I have an assumed F250 that weighs 8000#, with an allowable cargo weight of 2000# - that equals a GVWR of 10000#. With no cargo it can pull a 14000# trailer. That's 8K + 14K, NOT 10K + 14K.

If instead of a trailer it's a 14000# fifth wheel then some of the fifths weight (lets assume 2000#) will be transferred to the truck, now the truck is at 10000# while the fifths axle weight is reduced to 12000#. That's 10K + 12K.

Again this is using made up numbers - none of which meet proper hitch (or pin) load recommendations. Many folks (generally those with limited cargo capacity) incorrectly assume that lighter bumper weights (or pin loadings) are easy/ cheap solutions - however this leads to an unsafe condition: for safe towing heavier weights are recommended/ beneficial - to better minimize trailer sway ... 'or the tail from wagging the dog'.

EDIT in: In response to those happy overloaded campers (if asked) I would say just because you can pull it doesn't mean it's advisable. Over-loading tires, axles, differentials, etc. is not advisable / nor helpful towards longevity; and lifting/ leveling airbags will do nothing towards unloading them. Your current truck could also pull these heavy trailers, but so could a Tacoma (if it was fitted with a proper hitch). Doing this long term = eventually something will break and then they're on the side of the road / waiting on a wrecker - with huge upcoming towing/ repair bills.

Err on the side of safety and purchase the right truck for the job, or pay later.
 
  #32  
Old 01-10-2019, 04:54 PM
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If you do decide on a 16K pound fifth - then go with a dually (FORD, Chevy, Dodge); AND ensure they've (Dealer) checked the appropriate order boxes for the heavier capacities.
Here are my two door stickers: NOTE the (optionally selected) GVWR of 14K and its subsequent payload of 5352 pounds.




 
  #33  
Old 01-10-2019, 05:14 PM
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My dually & 16K# Bighorn; with 20% - 25% (3200 - 4000 pounds) loaded on the pin I still have ample capacity for people (fat mother in law), pets, fuel, hitch, tools, wheel chocks, propane and grill, portable waste tank, etc, etc.

Towing prudently like grandpa, over basically level ground, I only realize 8 - 9 mpg; keep that in mind if you go that route.


 
  #34  
Old 01-11-2019, 01:38 PM
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Originally Posted by romero969 View Post
Great information. I’ll keep you posted on course of action. I am contemplating getting a smaller RV. I have to see what will it take to get a F350 with the appropriate weight ratings.
I decided to stop by a local RV park and noticed a bunch of 3/4 ton trucks pulling heavy 5th wheels. I spoke to a three of them, and they claim to have no issues. I was just curious.
I just have another (probably silly) question.The max tow rating is 14,000 lbs, and the truck GVWR is 10,000 lbs.Why is the GCWR 22,000 lbs and not 24,000 lbs?
According to the feds, your maximum weight is the gcwr or the gvwr of the truck + the gvwr of the trailer, whichever is greater. So 24k is correct if pulling a 14k trailer or it would be 30k if pulling my 20k gooseneck.
 
  #35  
Old 01-13-2019, 10:17 PM
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Originally Posted by romero969 View Post
Great information. I’ll keep you posted on course of action. I am contemplating getting a smaller RV. I have to see what will it take to get a F350 with the appropriate weight ratings.
I decided to stop by a local RV park and noticed a bunch of 3/4 ton trucks pulling heavy 5th wheels. I spoke to a three of them, and they claim to have no issues. I was just curious.
I just have another (probably silly) question.The max tow rating is 14,000 lbs, and the truck GVWR is 10,000 lbs.Why is the GCWR 22,000 lbs and not 24,000 lbs?
There are a lot of trucks towing heavier than they should. They “have no issues” because the drivetrain can normally pull it and the suspension, sometimes with help, can hold it. The Great Debate is along “legal” lines.
 
  #36  
Old 01-14-2019, 08:01 AM
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Originally Posted by romero969 View Post
Great information. I’ll keep you posted on course of action. I am contemplating getting a smaller RV. I have to see what will it take to get a F350 with the appropriate weight ratings.
I decided to stop by a local RV park and noticed a bunch of 3/4 ton trucks pulling heavy 5th wheels. I spoke to a three of them, and they claim to have no issues. I was just curious.
I just have another (probably silly) question.The max tow rating is 14,000 lbs, and the truck GVWR is 10,000 lbs.Why is the GCWR 22,000 lbs and not 24,000 lbs?
I believe that part of the answer to the “no issues” question is that many, many people tow in conditions that are “a bit” less stressful than those used in the SAE J2807 tests used to certify the “maximum trailer weights”. This spec is cited several times in the RV and Trailer Towing Guide.

SAE J2807 Tow Tests - The Standard

and from https://www.natda.org/news/know-your...rrying-limits/

In a nutshell, SAE J2807 requires the vehicle manufacturer to use a vehicle equipped with the popular options found on at least 33 percent of the vehicles sold for that model; they also must run the test procedures with the equivalent of a 150-pound driver and passenger. The truck is hitched in a specific manner to a trailer that meets SAE specs and puts the tow vehicle (the pickup truck) at its maximum gross combined weight rating, meaning the combined weight of the pickup, its maximum payload, full fuel tank and the weight of the trailer.

Then a series of tests are conducted that target handling, trailer sway, braking, acceleration and component durability. The tests also include driving up the Davis Dam, a 7 percent grade that runs eastward out of Laughlin, Nev., for 11 miles to the top of the 3,500-foot summit in daytime temperatures of 100 degrees with the air conditioning going full blast. The vehicle manufacturer looks at all the data and decides what towing limits to place on that particular make/model vehicle.

If a vehicle is described as “J2807 compliant,” then its towing capacity and resulting limitations regarding the use of weight-distributing fifth-wheel and gooseneck hitches has been done using the SAE standards.


Not suggesting that it’s OK to exceed the GAWR, GVWR, or GCWR specs. In addition to “towing” tests (I.e. acceleration and climbing), the spec include tests for handling and braking.

HTH,
Jim / crewzer
 
  #37  
Old 01-23-2019, 04:08 PM
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What is the dry weight of the 5th wheel you are interested in?
 
  #38  
Old 01-23-2019, 07:09 PM
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Army Ret: That's an impressive rig. I think i may have under estimated the size. As a beginner, i should probably start with a smaller size rig and work my way up.

El Profesor 86: the dry weight is 13,500K
 
  #39  
Old 01-23-2019, 11:21 PM
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Army Ret: That's an impressive rig. I think i may have under estimated the size. As a beginner, i should probably start with a smaller size rig and work my way up.

What I would suggest is you get what you want, just make sure you properly match the tow vehicle for the job.



 
  #40  
Old 01-25-2019, 10:19 AM
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After much consideration, I decided to get a smaller RV. I couldn't secure a good deal on a trade for my F250. So rather than spend over $10K on a trade, I going to just get a nicer, smaller RV with comparable accommodations.
 
  #41  
Old 01-25-2019, 10:53 AM
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Originally Posted by romero969 View Post
After much consideration, I decided to get a smaller RV. I couldn't secure a good deal on a trade for my F250. So rather than spend over $10K on a trade, I going to just get a nicer, smaller RV with comparable accommodations.
Smart man!
 
  #42  
Old 01-25-2019, 12:12 PM
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Originally Posted by HRTKD View Post
Smart man!
2X.

It's nice when someone asks an honest question and actually gives the answers serious consideration.

Enjoy your new rig [color=center=#222222]romero969![/color]
 
  #43  
Old 01-25-2019, 04:57 PM
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Originally Posted by romero969 View Post
After much consideration, I decided to get a smaller RV. I couldn't secure a good deal on a trade for my F250. So rather than spend over $10K on a trade, I going to just get a nicer, smaller RV with comparable accommodations.
Happy shopping; but until you post some pics then it never happened.
 
  #44  
Old 01-29-2019, 06:53 PM
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Romero969, you got a lot of good information here but not the complete picture. There is more than one way to skin a cat, there are two sides to every story, etc. First off, let me say that the trailer you had your eye on was not appropriate for your truck, but you already know that. There are a few point I would add that might be useful as you look for an appropriate fifth wheel.

1) The brakes on your F250 XL are identical to the brakes on a DRW F350 Limited. Stopping will not be a limiting factor for you. Your truck has less mass so it’s breaking performance will actually be superior to that of an F350.

2) Although the “R” in GVWR does stand for rating, the 10,000 pound “rating” of your F250 is the same as every other F250. It is the max rating your truck can have while maintaining its Class 2 status. If it is a special order, you can choose the option of assigning it a lower rating for tax or registration reasons, but nothing can increase it. The point is, it is completely unrelated to how your truck is equipped. A truck can be optioned with more or less robust components and it will have no impact on the GVRW.

3) The payload sticker is simply the GVRW minus the weight of your truck (as it left the factory).

4) With the exception of the rear suspension, your truck is identical to a F350. Which is to say, it’s a beast.

I personally put no stock in GVWR or payload. There is lots of conjecture, speculation and anecdotal stories but you could read every post on FTE and never find an actual account of someone landing in hot water for exceeding their GVWR. It is pretty widely accepted that from a “legal” standpoint, what really matters are the actual ratings of the components that make up your truck.

I would contend that you will be both legal and safe as long as you do not exceed your tire, wheel, spring or axle ratings. Even the term axle rating is a misnomer. Your axles are actually rated by the manufacturer to carry significantly more weight than Ford rates them for. Ford’s “axle ratings” are actually limited by the leaf spring and coils spring ratings.

I recently posted this in another thread:“Yet another weight related thread is petering out. No problem, there will be another one soon. Before this one dies completely, I did some math that I wanted to share. I built a spreadsheet assuming that the actual weight of my truck (I have not scaled it yet) is the GVWR minus the payload on the sticker. That may not be perfect but I'm sure it is pretty close. I did some research to determine the individual axle weights. There are a couple threads where folks posted their weights or an image of a CAT scale ticket. I added 350 pounds to the unloaded weight of each axle (700 lbs. total) to account for cargo in the bed and cab. Once again, not perfect but this is about getting a general idea. I used the specs of a Grand Design Reflection 303RLS which has a GVWR of 11,995 pounds. I assumed the trailer would be loaded to the max and allowed for a pin weight of 22% (2640 lbs.) with 11% (290 lbs.) on the front axle and 89% (2350 lbs.) on the rear.

If you are devoted to the GVWR/payload sticker, this is damning evidence of how utterly overloaded my truck would be towing a moderately sized fifth wheel. If your concern is the actual ratings of the component, this is validation of just how capable this truck really. It is interesting that even a SRW F350 would be over its GVWR based on these calculations...and this is a relatively light, mid-profile trailer. It is also interesting how close the front axle is to the max rating.

Please check my work if you want. I think my methodology is at least sound enough to derive a reasonable picture.”


Everyone gets to decide what they are comfortable with. As a logic driven guy, I find it almost impossible to make decisions that are based on ratings which are not derived from any actual testing. Personally, I can think of no reason to be concerned with towing or hauling any load that does not exceed the ratings of the components that actually carry the load.
 
  #45  
Old 02-03-2019, 04:23 PM
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JD'sBigredv10,

That's an impressive logic driven conclusion. I definitely never thought about taking the components' ratings into consideration. It make sense! Especially when I just looked at the same RV (Grand Design Reflection 303 RLS)
 

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