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1980 - 1986 Bullnose F100, F150 & Larger F-Series Trucks Discuss the Early Eighties Bullnose Ford Truck

Spark knock or ping question

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Old Nov 20, 2018 | 08:02 PM
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Smile Spark knock or ping question

Is spark knock the same as "ping" and is it usually very discernible. My engine is internally stock with only the mods listed in my signature.
I just re-curved my distributor to bring the advance in faster. I used a Crane kit with springs and adjustable vacuum advance. I used 2 of their yellow springs which they claim should theoretically bring it all-in at 2600 RPM. My distributor governor is set in the 15 notch which should yield 30 degrees total mechanical advance and initial timing is set at 10 degrees BTDC.
Crane says to make full throttle runs with vacuum advance disconnected and listen for spark knock. I didn't hear anything unusual. It did seem to have more pep.
Crane then says to connect the vacuum advance, set it at highest setting and check for spark knock at part throttle cruise. Again no unusual noises that I could hear.
Does this sound OK or should I be listening harder?
All advice appreciated. I have very little knowledge about performance enhancements.
 
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Old Nov 20, 2018 | 08:07 PM
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Yes ping & knock are the same and it can sound like someone dropped rocks down the carb and bouncing off the top of the pistons, ping / knock is just as bad.
Now they say sometimes you cant hear knock but it is still there.
Dave ----
 
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Old Nov 20, 2018 | 10:31 PM
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From my reading, I understand that a 9-9.5 compression ratio engine should tolerate 38-42 degrees total advance. My engine is a low compression smog era engine with D8 heads (approx. 8.4 compression ratio), so I hope I'm safe at 40 degrees total advance. Just to be safe I backed the vacuum advance module down 2 turns.
 
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Old Nov 20, 2018 | 11:31 PM
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There's different causes sometimes, even if they sound similar. Too hot a plug can cause knock. So they call that pre-ignition if I remember right.

The thing about excessive vacuum advance ignition timing, it shows itself in a different set of conditions than with excessive mechanical advance, which is indicated when under heavy acceleration as from a dead stop or anytime high demand & high RPM. A rattle or ping there is too much initial timing, or somewhere later in the mechanical curve based on engine RPM. Don't want that, ever. That's why it's important to suss out the mechanical advance with test drives while vacuum advance is disconnected and plugged. Get the mechanical curve dialed in where you want it, then you don't want to mess with it again, and tune the vacuum can only. Where vacuum advance really earns its keep is when cruising on level ground, in high gear, engine load is low, and so is RPM. So the mechanical advance is relatively retarded. Here the vacuum advance can pull in a lot of timing for smoother, cooler running and better fuel economy. Fuel mixtures are very lean and therefore need a lot more advance to get the fire lit.

Vacuum advance ping or knock is a little different in terms of where it's found, the split second rattle sometimes heard at part throttle acceleration when cruising or brief no load deceleration just when letting off the gas. It's based on engine load only, so a very slight momentary rattle every now and then at part throttle is probably OK. If excessive vacuum advance is pulled in though, it will be a constant rattle and run ragged at steady cruise on level ground esp. once load levels off, confirmed by going away when accelerating (load) Not good either. So you want to be mindful to distinguish between the two.

If you don't have a knock sensor though, be careful. The spark plugs should be inspected carefully. With a magnifying glass, look for evidence of tiny round globules of silvery metal on the porcelain. Those would be the pistons self-destructing. If you can get 36° or 38° BTDC (without vacuum advance) and without knock maybe try bringing it in earlier, with lighter springs, by say 2500 and see what happens. Heavy trucks, or hauling heavy loads, wouldn't like that too much generally. Or, try a little more advance, every engine is slightly different. But it's true, engine knock is not always audible, and you want to leave a little on the table to account for temperature and humidity changes, or a bad bag of gas.
 
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Old Nov 21, 2018 | 12:09 AM
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One question while I'm thinking of it - have you verified the mechanical advance numbers with a timing light on the damper?
 
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Old Nov 21, 2018 | 11:22 AM
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Tedster: yes I checked timing with a light. It could be a degree or 2 off but no more. (my 10 degree mark on the damper is a little wide so I could see it well - old eyes you know) .

I wasn't surprised when I didn't hear any knock with the vacuum advance disconnected because everything I have read would indicate that I should be fine at 40 degrees total advance with my low compression engine. But when I didn't hear any evidence of spark knock with the vacuum advance connected and at maximum setting I started to doubt myself as to whether I was missing something.

I have already backed the vacuum advance down 2 turns and didn't notice any change. I can back the initial down a degree or 2 also if that is advisable. I hate to change it because at the present setting when warmed up it is impossible to just bump the starter; it will start before you can release the key.

My question was just basically being my very cautious self because I was afraid I had missed something. I'll drive it some more and try backing the vacuum advance down a bit and maybe drop the initial also.

Thanks all, and any additional comments or advise is welcome.
 
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Old Nov 21, 2018 | 11:30 AM
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Drive it awhile and keep an eye on it. I have messed with the timing before on engines and after about two weeks had a slight miss-fire at cruising speeds. I eventually found out it was the sparkplugs since it went away when I changed them, but it came back a couple of weeks later. This all started after I bumped the timing up. Come to find out I had to buy sparkplugs that were one number cooler than the original plugs. Apparently when I bumped the timing up it was creating too much heat for the hotter plugs that had come originally with the engine. The cooler plugs fixed the miss-fire.
 
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Old Nov 21, 2018 | 11:46 AM
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Originally Posted by Franklin2
Drive it awhile and keep an eye on it ...Come to find out I had to buy sparkplugs that were one number cooler than the original plugs. Apparently when I bumped the timing up it was creating too much heat for the hotter plugs that had come originally with the engine. The cooler plugs fixed the miss-fire.
That's a really good point. Advanced ignition timing alone will do it, along with leaner fuel mixtures when fine tuning, installing hotter ignition coils after ditching the older style points and condenser deleting the ballast wire. Factory plugs tended to be a bit on the hot side anyway to help prevent fouling due to short trips and around town driving. Extended summertime highway trips may benefit another step down temporarily. The worst that can happen with colder plugs is fouling, so when tuning starting with a colder plug and working back up if required is a good strategy. This is one reason I like NGK plugs because they have a wide selection in heat ranges. Other plug lines aren't so good about that, and cross-reference charts aren't really particularly accurate. "This will fit" is about as close as they get sometimes.
 
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Old Nov 21, 2018 | 12:06 PM
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Originally Posted by whisler
I have already backed the vacuum advance down 2 turns and didn't notice any change. I can back the initial down a degree or 2 also if that is advisable. I hate to change it because at the present setting when warmed up it is impossible to just bump the starter; it will start before you can release the key.
Are you certain the vacuum advance is working? Or, are you sure it was maxed out when you started? It will add quite a bit when checking advance in neutral, there is no load at all, so it will pull more in on the damper than it might out on the highway to some... degree. So you should see around 50° BTDC with a light at high RPM with the vacuum advance connected. Somewhere between 40° and 50° when cruising on level ground is stock distributor curve. Whenever accelerating under load the vacuum advance gets pulled and timing reverts to just the mechanical + initial. Sure sounds like you're on the right track. Kind of a hassle, but it's the only way to do it without a distributor machine.

On the Ford distributor, lighter weight springs can be installed, but, there is also an access slot on the advance plate, it allows one to tweak or bend the spring arms with a screwdriver without removing or disassembling the distributor. By stretching any given spring tighter it slows the rate of advance, loosening it allows for quicker advance. Notice there is often a light spring and a heavy spring, the heavy spring being relatively loose. Loosening the light spring will bring the timing in earlier/faster. Or try installing two light springs. Keeping in mind the heavier the vehicle, the less ignition advance it will tolerate.

It really is a cut and try thing. It may be your distributor has something similar, to allow for looser springs regardless of how heavy or light they may be.
 
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Old Nov 21, 2018 | 02:58 PM
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Tedster; when you asked about checking mechanical advance with a light and I answered "yes" I meant initial advance not the whole advance curve.
I had done the curve in the past and found that I was only getting a total of 27 deg. at 3500 rpm. (10 initial + 17 mechanical, vacuum advance disconnected) even though my governor was in the 15 slot which should give a total of 40 deg. I may have gotten to 40 deg. eventually but didn't see any sense checking past 3500 rpm because I almost never rev. beyond there.

That's why I went to the Crane kit for lighter springs and adj. vacuum advance, to bring the advance in at a more usable RPM range. The Crane kit "claims" that with the 2 yellow springs that I used I should be all-in by 2600 RPM, but I know that is "approximate". I'll try checking the curve again to see where I am.
I had the adjustment on the vacuum advance can set full clockwise which is max. originally but have backed it out 2 turns now. I can always back it down more if needed. I will check timing with and without to verify that the vacuum advance is working.
 
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Old Nov 21, 2018 | 05:18 PM
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Vacuum advance is definitely working. I backed it down another 2 turns for safety sake.

I don't think I am getting full advance by 2600. With the vacuum advance disconnected, I am at about 29-30 degrees @2500 RPM. That is about 7-8 degrees better than before @ 2500 RPM, at least on my not-so-easy-to-read home made timing tape. I may have to break down and buy a real timing tape if my curiosity gets the best of me. For now it runs fine and seems to rev faster and have more pep on acceleration. That's good enough for me. After I drive it for a while an make sure all is OK I'll move on to the next project --- Edelbrock carb.

Thanks for the help guys.
 
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Old Nov 21, 2018 | 05:28 PM
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There are always limitations and sometimes consequences when modifying things. Another thing to watch for, springs that are too light will sometimes not bring the weights back in reliably. If occasionally you get a hard start when hot, but not everytime, that is usually the problem.
 
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Old Nov 21, 2018 | 10:53 PM
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Thanks Franklin 2, I will keep that in mind.
 
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Old Nov 22, 2018 | 04:54 AM
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If you are using a modern adjustable timing light set it to 40° And rev the engine till you hit the 0° on the damper. Then note your Engine RPM. The lighter springs in the kit are more of a guide and you may have to mix and match till you get your total in at the desired 2600 RPM. As long as one spring is holding the reluctor tight against it's stop at rest you are alright.

40° total is a little on the ragged edge even for a lower compression smog motor IMHO. But then again you do not know what RPM it is coming in fully. If it is 3500 RPM it should not be an issue.
Figure out what RPM you are getting your total at and go from there.

If you want to be extra cautious dial back the initial to 8° this will give you 38° total and that will be more than safe and give you a safety margin for bad fuel and or with hot operation.
This should not affect how it starts and it may make it start even better.....
 
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Old Nov 22, 2018 | 09:55 AM
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My timing light is not at all modern, as i got it from my father-in-law 15 years ago and it was old then. The only thing I can say at this point is that I am getting approximately 30 degrees total advance at 2500 RPM. Since i am using 2 identical springs, advance may come on fairly fast past this point but only checking will tell me that.
I'll see what kind of timing light I can rent at some of the local parts houses.
Thanks again all.
 
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