HI there fellows I need some assistance. I have been helping my son work on his 04 f150 4X4 with 3V 5.4. He was having some low rpm skipping that got worse. So, per his research he thought it was a cam phaser. So we went about replacing the drivers side (bank 2) cam phaser. Long story short the tool that holds the cam chain in place slipped out and we lost time. So I tore the whole front end down and replaced both cam phasers, timing chains, chain tensioners, etc with a kit he bought off ebay. I used a video on youtube and follow that ford mechanic to a tee. All the color links lined up with the other marks an it looked perfect. I put it all back together and it still runs awful. It will barely run. I am almost certain that I got the timing spot on. It is kicking 3 constant codes P0022, P0171, P2198. That P0022 is back two over retarded. It runs like straight boo boo but isn't kicking any cylinder specific misfire codes.

Before I tear this thing all the way back down is there a way to tell if its in time for sure? I thought I read where someone mentioned something about checking compression would tell you but I'm not sure. Just an FYI it is running so bad it will hardly drive at all. Also if you pull and coil wire of any cylinder it doesn't affect how the engine is running at all. It is almost like the entire bank two isn't firing. If I pull one off bank 1 there is a noticeable worsening of the idle. This thing has been down for 6 months and we need it running. Where should I start. Could this thing have an entire dead bank?
We also change those things that are inside the valve coves as well. I cant think of their name but they are long and thin and inside the valve covers. I can not think of their names.

Thanks for any help,

Gerald

 

History of truck ,mileage . Has the plugs been changed to the new sp546. New boots on plugs . Did you clean all cop terminals . All this is good to do first . Base line ignition must be perfect before trying to find another fault . Cleaning spark tip area of cly to get carbon out is a good idea as it breaks plugs ,carb cleaner dissolves it . Have you cleaned throttle body and maf
Next would be VCTS changed to newest version . They have screens and get dirty- jammed . Vcts take the signals pulses from pcm and release oil pressure to cam phasers constantly to vary advance/ retard of cams . They are not supposed to be in play at idle unless jammed . Changing VCTS always a good idea if it hasn't been done .
You must have good oil pressure ,were your guides broken ,if so you should have dropped oil pan to clean out fibers from oil pu screen . You can see a lot of us changing oil pump on timing job , we are really excited about the newest oil pump from melling just came out last fall ,its a high volume 340hv . We like to replace plastic tensioners with the older style steel ratcheting ones with no seal to blow out as they are a common failure . . At this point I would take injectors out and clean /test them . None of this would hurt at this point

We do not recommend using aftermarket phasors ,they are not good and fail easily . Your chain and phasers should have looked like drawing at timing point . How dirty was engine . Is it noisy.

 

Those long thin things may have been vcts sticking out of valve cover . Be very careful about right and left it is so confusing as it pertains to drivers R and L not mechanics . We use passenger -drivers . This can be very important when doing timing and which cam lobes are pointing which way to get them roughly correct also which bank is the correct one .
We may have to see if your 02 are bad or cat test to see if cats are plugged . Just not enough info now .

 

Hi, yes the timing marks were spot on. Those codes were there before changing those parts. Its just gotten worse..It's almost to the point that i think whatever it was has just gotten worse, we just happen to change some parts in the middle. Its parts that need changing but I'm not sure they were the original issue. I change to the high volume melling when doing the timing chain thing. I also added a t fitting down on the sender and ran a mechanical oil pressure gauge inside. Idle pressure is around 50psi now. Not sure what it was before pump change but the stock gauge is a little higher than it was pre-pump change. The engine is a high mileage engine at 265K. We have replace the 4 plugs on the drivers side (bank 2). Not sure if it was that style and yes we had the typical spark plug breaking off in the hole. Bought kit and got those two broken ones out.

We replaced the things that are about 5-6 inches long that bolt into the head and sit vertical and have a grommet in the top of the valve cover (I assume these are the vcts). Excuse my ignorance. My son bought all these parts I just been helping with work. They were replace one at a time so not sure how we would have mixed up bank 1 with bank 2. We have not replace those sensors that work with the phasers and sit horizontal in the timing cover. Those are very short.

Engine had some build up in the heads but it was super bad. It was like the old "Quaker State" build up back in the day (if you are old enough to remember that). The guides and chains looked great. One of the tensioners seemed to bleed down after sitter. He said that the original phaser we replaced at first was bad. it had some sort of slop or something. Its been 6 months so memory is bad. I have been messing with cars/motorcycles/boats, etc my whole life just not much the last 10-15 years, at least not cars. We race dirt bikes so thats where most of time goes. So, I am fairly certain the dang timing is dead on and tha'ts why I hate to tear it back down as I check int 10 times before I buttoned it back up and it was perfect. But after so long you begin to question yourself.
I have not cleaned TB, I did clean the element on the mass air filter and chased down ever possible vacuum line double checking for leaks there. The power is so bad now that it will barely pull itself. This clogged cat thing has me wondering. I had one clog years ago and it totally bogged the car down but the car didn't skip and stuff but it was long before efi came along. Thought about pulling the exhaust off just for a quick check to see if power returned I know that isn't ideal but the power should return if that's it.
The whole bank 2 being dead has be perplexed to be honest.

Thanks for your time.

 

Just chiming in to provide some clarity.

The VCTS were changed at separate times. Of all the research I've done and questions posted, no one has ever mentioned that VCTS were bank specific. As for the Cam Phaser I decided to change it because it had the infamous "diesel tick" and would buck at low rpms in overdrive along with poor fuel economy. All signs pointed to the phaser. When we removed the phaser it basiclly fell into a couple ofdifferent pieces.

After replacing the phaser I drove it back home 20 miles or so and it had a noticeable increas in bottom end power. The aforementioned symptoms still continued if not worsened. At this point it would die when coming to complete stop. These is when we decided to replace all timing components along with oil pump since we were in there.

Fast forward to today, all work considered we are running low on ideas. This is gonna be the final attempt before washing my hands of it. High miles but it's been a great truck thus far. I wanted to add that there is a very profuse fuel odor when running the truck now I'm sure related to codes its kicking. Not sure if that was a need to know thing but there's no such thing as too much information with these situations.

I've got the OBD app on my phone and the fuel trims are pretty out of wack from what I've been told. Torque pro I believe it is called. Any and all suggestions are greatly appreciated. A beverage of choice for those willing to shed light.

 

the P0022 means the driver side cam shaft is out of time. This can be due to several things. Normally you would think the chain wore / jumped time, or the phaser failed, etc.... Since you replaced the parts and still have the code, you would first assume the chain was not installed correctly.... If you are SURE you got the chain timed right, there are other possible causes for this being " out of time" ........... and the poor timing probably caused the O2 problem/ failure ....... this can lead to CAT problems, but the CAT is a result and can not cause the P0022.

P0022 FORD - Camshaft Position 'A' Timing Over-Retarded Bank 2

Possible causes

 

Yes, your out of time and have excess fuel leaving the cylinders unburned... that gives low power... that causes O2 problems... that causes the CAT pluggage........ but it all starts with valve timing.. continue to look at the VCT , CMP areas.

 

Although it may not be obvious, @steve(ill) provided a absolute wealth of information in his posts above. May I add a couple of tid-bits that he didn't elaborate on. If you got the chains on "out of time", you would also have a P0345 or P0349 code - or both - because Phaser fingers would not be where they are supposed to be during cranking. Those two codes are most often the result of the locking pin inside the Phaser failing to lock the Phaser at base timing (Zero Retard), but WILL occur if timing chain is off a tooth, or has jumped time. (For this reason, I doubt that in your case).

The 'ABSOLUTE' translation of code P0022 is: "The camshaft is more than 5 camshaft degrees retarded than that requested by the PCM, for more than 5 seconds". The PCM 'constantly' calculates desired RETARD, and outputs a duty cycle signal between 0% to 100% to VCT solenoids to route oil flow / pressure into either retard or advance chambers inside the Phaser to position cams at the EXACT position desired by the PCM. The Cam Position Sensors provides positive closed loop feedback to the PCM so it knows cams are positioned where it has requested - OR NOT. A 'CAM ERROR' factor is constantly calculated. If it exceeds 5% for more than 5 seconds ---- bingo, Code P0022 or P0012.

Below 800 RPM and below 25% engine load, the PCM never requests retard so cams should be at ZERO degrees retard (or - in other words- full advances).

If you have ragged idle, or bank 2 seeming to be dead - it semi confirms the P0022 because a retarded cam has the effect of reducing compression - significantly reducing the power produced by cylinders on that bank.

This makes me think --- in your case - you could have a VCT solenoid that is NOT closing (and thus) NOT routing all oil flow / pressure into the 'ADVANCE' chambers of the Phaser. /// One of the possible causes listed by @steve(ill) /// You could TRY 'wrapping' on the VCT Solenoid on bank 2 with a screw driver handle while engine is idling - or remove and it an check the 'screen' for debris/clogging, OR test it by applying 12 volts to it through a 50 ohm resistor and see if it actuates reliably. OR just Replace the Bank 2 VCT and see what happens.

If the above fails to produce desirable results, You could have debris / junk clogging oil passageways /// another possible cause listed by @steve(ill). /// You could try doing a couple of back to back EXTREEM engine flush treatments with strong engine flush chemicals. While the engine is running the flush -- Place the shifter in second gear and Torque the engine up with breaks, and let off accelerator ---- REPEATEDLY --- to get engine RPM > 800 an Load > 25% and then drop back down -- REPEATEDLY. This FORCES oil flow to be routed back and forth through the passageways and in Phaser chambers violently. Then drain the flush, change filter an do it all again.

OR - you possibly got a 'Funky' new Phaser that is just binding / not operating smoothly. /// another possible cause liste by @steve(ill) /// But in each case, the Bank 2 cam is > 5 degrees retarded (from where it is requested to be) for more than 5 seconds.

Finally, since you have Torque Pro - I would suggest spending some time becoming very familiar with Torque Pro's extended capability and set up the CAM/PHASER MONITOR screen like the one pictured here and monitor EXACTLY what the cams are doing when they are supposed to retard and advance.

This Torque Pro cam / phaser monitor screen shows Requested Retard for both banks, VCT Duty cycle for both banks, and CAM ERROR (which should always be zero - or at least less than 5 degrees error), plus some other critical parameters effecting cam retard.


All necessary Parameter IDs and a downloadable file for setting up this screen is posted here:
https://www.f150forum.com/f4/final-r...4/#post5133357

 

Hey guys thanks for the info. To be honest I have wonder if the passages might be clogged up. There was some gunk up there but like I said I have seen worse. Even thought the oil pressure is over 60psi down at he sending unit area does not mean you have 60 up top if the passages are clogged up. Just for clarity, are those VCTs bank specific? I will try the method you mention to help clean it out. What's these chemical up mention and this flushing process?

I have another question, What't the chance that the cam position sensors are messed up? Sounds like you think we should concentrate on the cam phaser/vct/oil pressure area? I had a local mechanic tell me he was having the same problem and he saw something on the internet about a clogged up oil pick screen. He said he dropped the pan and replace the oil pump pick up tube and it totally fixed his truck? Ever heard that?
I cranked the truck earlier today and upon initial crank up you could tell it was not perfect and had a slight skip/sputter. I drove it a short distance and it had plenty of pep and power but with a slight skip. As it began to warm up it got worse. By the time the temp hand got to half way (maybe 5 minutes) it was awful. It would barely run, it sound like an old pulp wood truck if you're familiar with that sound (big *** hole in the muffler). For a lack of a better word it sounded like it was a steady "pooting" and very little power. You had to hold the gas on when coming to a stop as it wanted to die. When you cut if off or it goes dead at anytime after it gets hot like this it is really hard to crank it back up. I think it's from the rich condition as like my son states there is a real strong smell of gas at this point.


Final question; Are the VCT'S side specific. When purchased it was never sold as left or right,

Thanks,

Gerald

 

Its just that people get bank 1 and 2 mixed up as well as R and L . Phasers are not side specific they are dual marked Its how you put them on during timing that counts . For diagnostics you need the proper orientation language. Codes are specific to banks location and proper cly orientation
Back to this problem , If engine still dirty ,that's a problem . All the Small passages and screens get clogged . This engine cam circuit is hydraulically operated using dirty engine oil . When off idle the pcm sends electrical pulse signals to vcts to move cams releasing engine oil pressure to phasers , phaser fingers are seen by cam sensors then to pcm to see if they responded and are at the proper location . . Pcm watches crank sensor to see which cyl is up and how its responding to pcm signals to injectors and cops . It helps if cam sensors are clean . Sometimes even new phaser fingers come bent away from cam sensor position ,look for that ..
By watching crank sensor the pcm tries to tell if that cly firing properly -- whether it got a boost or not .
Dirt can jam all this vct circuit up . I did an engine flush just before timing job ,boy did that make it worse ,it broke all that stuff loose but it was fairly clean for the timing job . You must keep this system clean by changing oil often . cleaning during timing job very helpful . There are restrictors in oil gallerys up top as well as vct housings that can fill up with dirt . If dirt jams up vct solenoid it can stick and leak when it should be at rest .
Cam circuit it is a heavy duty cycle system, it constantly moves , OEM parts are a must . Clean Oil pressure is a must . Guides break and get ground up and get sucked into oil pu screen and is hard to clean/ reducing oil pressure/ possibly making foam . Guide fibers will not come out oil drain they are stuck in screen very tightly . . Plastic Tensioner gaskets blow out then oil pressure drops and chain whips breaking guides , its a vicious loop . Good for you adding oil guage . Use only mc filters as they have good anti drain back valve and are cheap at wally world . You can use cheaper conventional oil for flushes .
At this point I would do several oil flushes maybe let the first one sit overnight . Then add some marvel m oil at the end ,its a good slow cleaner .

 

^^^^^^^^^ What @redfishtd said is all good, sound, accurate advice.

It is ALWAYS a good idea (if not absolute necessity) to clean out Oil Pan / Pickup Screen. @redfishtd is correct that a plugged screen can cause 'cavitation' (whipping up foam) in oil passageways KILLING oil pressure. The symptom frequently shows up after engine warms up / oil thins / and trash sitting in the bottom of the pan gets sucked up against the pickup screen. HOWEVER - this would effect BOTH BANKS equally. If you have only P0022, Passenger side Variable Valve Timing is working properly. There are separate codes for each side and that is, in itself, useful diagnostic information.

Also, I do not think it is cps sensor related. There are several separate codes for that - and as I mentioned in previous post, you do not have P0340/344 or P0345/349. If phaser fingers were bent, or CPS sensors not working, I believe you would have one of those CPS 'circuit' type codes.

Be sure you are giving us _ALL_ trouble codes - by NUMBER, not diagnostic description. Are you STILL getting P2198. If so track that one down first. Use Torque Pro with graph display on O2 sensor, bank 2 sensor 1. P2198 is frequently caused by a poor electrical connection (OPEN in ground or O2 sense wire). O2 sensors are supplied a "+" bias voltage and when the O2 sensor senses oxygen, it conducts to ground pulling the bias voltage to ground. Being stuck "+", seriously over RICH (P2198), suggest a bad O2 sensor or open ground or signal circuit.

Look carefully at vacuum connections on passenger side for a vacuum leak. P0171 lean needs to be removed. The PCM LENGTHENS the injector pulse width trying to provide extra fuel to compensate for unmetered air getting into combustion process ---- and THAT could lead to fuel smell and ragged running. But you need to address THAT issue. With the PCM "THINKING" it is 'RICH' on bank 2, and 'LEAN' on bank 1, it will definitely cause poor operation. USE TORQUE PRO to attack these problems systematically. Set up a Torque Pro screen like the one below for monitoring 'Fuel Trims' while you blow an unlit propane torch around the intake / vacuum lines / injector bases / Intake Manifold gaskets on the passenger side - if you get near a vacuum leak, Short Term Fuel Trim will IMMEDIATELY go WAY NEGATIVE. Pass the torch in front of air intake to see what happens.

Torque Pro O2 Sensor 1 and fuel trim monitor screen

 

Thanks yall for the help. I just cleared the code (the three listed above). I drove the truck 15-20 minutes. CEL never came on and the only code that came up this time was the P0022. I understand it may take driving it longer to get some other codes but in it current condition it is BARELY driveable. I mean you really have to work to keep it running and momentum is key.

I want to address one other thing. What is the chance that the new cam phaser (cheap version from amazon kit) is a POS brand new? I know everyone encourages OEM but at $70 vs $400 we chose the cheaper initially. I mean if that's it then heck yeah the headache alone is worth the extra $330 but it that is not it then that is one hell of a price difference. Just wondering.
Has anyone else had good luck with a cheap one? Has anyone else bought a cheap one only to find out it is no good? Is there a way to check the phaser itself seeing it has no electical hookup (CPS)?

After sitting for about 30 minutes I rechecked the codes to verify the P0022 and with the engine off and nothing more there was a new code, P0175. Is it normal for them to kick codes sitting there not running with the key off? That's odd to me but maybe it's not..


Gerald

 

Update, I just did an engine flush I found on this site with sea foam and I was actually able to drive the thing. I drove it for about 30 minutes and it kicked all these codes 0171,0175,0022, and 2198. If you drive it at low rpms it loads up bad and is hard to clear up. You basically have to get the revs up for a bit to burn off all the excess gas. Then it will drive fairly decent now since the engine flush. Maybe it's just me that it's running better but I really thing it does. Should I do another flush?

Gerald

 

Yes, I'd do another flush (OR TWO) if you think it's helping. I know you are advised against it - but about every third oil change, I put the strong clear one quart Motor Mechanic flush solvent in mine for about the last 40 or 50 miles at the end of a day - let it set over night, then next day idle her till she's warm and drain. I do this even NOW after having done my timing job about 25,000 miles ago.

There are codes that are called 'grey' or 'pending' and become active after occurring multiple drive cycles. Perhaps that could be playing into what you witnessed.

As for the 'cheap' phaser ... ????? You might want to watch this video


No personal experience with NON- OEM Phasers, just based solely on what I have read around here - I would be willing to bet that THAT is your problem at this point.

The Torque Pro screen I linked previously will show cam ERROR live, so you can tell it it is a HARD problem, or intermittently causing problems, or getting worse as engine warms up. I would first try to see what that avenue shows.

Luckliy, --- you can change out Phasers without pulling F/C. And since you have to remove Valve Covers to do it anyway, you can tell 'some' about Phasers by looking for 'positioning' of the fifth finger. It is not absolutely conclusive, as the failure could be internal. But if the fifth finger is NOT directly over the "L" timing Mark, its JUNK - and you would KNOW.

 

We got to thinking, the truck ran pretty decent after replacing the original phaser. It wasnt shortly after it started running bad and we did the who timing kit. When I did the timing kit I left the original phaser (cheap one as well as what was in the kit) as it minimal miles on it. So maybe that cheap phaser went bad and we been chasing a ****ty phaser the whole time.

I know you said that the fifth finger pointing at the L wasnt conclusive but here is a pic. The fifth finger is the one in the middle correct?