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Hi everyone, my BIL is taking my van on a roadtrip tomorrow but I'm starting to stress about it. I've done a couple things recently and have a couple of unrelated (?) Problems. #1 overheating #2 low voltage reading.
Overheating - I have had over heating issues in temps over 90 degrees when going up hill. It showed up on the first hot day this year when I left to go to yellowstone (bad timing!). I never knew until today the radiator fluid reservoir was to be filled 1/3 full (ish). I thought it was for overflows only. I developed a leaking heater core drip during that Yellowstone trip. Since getting back I've replaced the heater core and thermostat. I also bought a new radiator cap and added almost a gallon of fluids to the radiator and reservoir combined. If this thing doesn't burp itself overnight should I suspect something other than an air bubble? I don't believe I have a leak in the radiator or reservoir at this point. I don't know if the fan cuts out up hill but it is on in park. The van is new to me so I don't know anything about the water pump or radiator flushes. The PO did mention overheating once and blowing a house.
Low voltage - I noticed the ac compressor clicking after the clutch kicked in so I replaced the clutch. Now the ticking is gone but when I hit the ac switch the volt meter needle drops well below the centerline (discharging). The first oreilly's guy showed the bad battery screen on his diagnostic tool. Releived, I then went to les schwab for a warrantied replacement and they said it tested fine (they couldn't test the alternator due to a dead unit). I then went to a different oreilly's to test the battery and his unit says it's fine and so is the alternator (we were sitting in park at an idle with ac off). The last teaser (and reason I kept these two issue together) is when I switch on the ac, the voltmeter goes down, the engine gets a bit bogged down then picks up rpm... and then voltage picks back up followed by higher engine temps. Also the engine temp gauage will go up or down a couple degrees with the ac switched on or off. Could oreilly's have sent me a bad clutch or one rated too high for my system... Or is this a matter of timing where everything has gone out in a conveniently interrelated manner? I read one guy had this issue when he plugged the clutch in backwards but I don't believe that's possible with my harness clip style
After reading hours of Forums I have gotten nowhere.
Do you and your BIL get along well now?
You may not after the road trip! it only takes a minute or two of running hot to ruin an engine. At 60 mph that is 1 mile a minute... This means that your BIL needs to pretty much keep his eye on the temp gauge.. Since the van is new to you I would recommend finding and repairing the problem before heading out on a trip...
There are several things you might want to check and do if you plan on keeping the van.
You might have an electrical problem that is in part showing up in your gauges. First though I would address the overheating problem.
First, I would buy a mechanical temp gauge and connect it to find an exact temp reading instead of using the factory dash gauge. You do not have to mount the mechanical gauge through into the cab at this point as you will only be using it for testing. I routed mine around the hood and let it rest under the wiper arm outside the windshield so I could watch the temps while driving.
Second, I would flush out the coolant system as well as cleaning the outside of the condenser and radiator to ensure you have good air flow through them. then do a block test to check for a bad head gasket. You can get the tool as a loaner tool from the parts store.
If the block test checks out ok,,,
Third, I would check the fan clutch and make sure it is operating properly. I replaced my stock fan clutch with a heavy duty fan clutch.. The fan clutch only works at lower speeds below around 45 mph. After that, the air flow through the radiator should be enough from the van moving above 45.
I do not know if 1993 vans used a copper/brass radiator but mine is and I took it out and had a radiator shop to vat and rod it out.. They charged me about $100...
As to electrical problems. I would start by cleaning or replacing the terminals at the battery and any ground terminals you can find.
Use a volt meter directly on the posts of the battery, not the terminals clamps... record the voltage. Have someone start the engine while you watch the meter and record the voltage drop while starting and again after the engine is running. After the engine is running, have your helper turn the AC on and off while you watch and record the voltage at the battery posts..
If I understand, when you turn the AC on, the engine bogs down and the voltage drops on the dash gauge? Once the engine picks back up, so does the voltage. That might be normal for the voltage to drop because the engine rpm's have dropped below the speed at which the alternator can effectively charge. If that is the case then you need to figure out why the engine rpm's are dropping too low. I believe in the 1993, that when you turn the AC on, it signals the ECM that the AC is on and the ECM should adjust the RPM's accordingly so the engine doesn't bog down.
For now I would worry more about the overheating issue.
Hi,
How old is your radiator ? when was last time your performed a coolant flush? These vans are well known for developing lots of rust in engine block thus blocking passages in radiator diminishing its efficiency or worst yet: complete radiator failure. Even if the radiator looks fine from the outside, if your radiator is a few years old or worst year original radiator , chances are you need a new one. I do drive a '94, e350 and I experienced overheating issues as well. Two mechanic spent time on van and both told me it was a head gasket problem . Well, both were wrong!! , Out of frustration I replaced my radiator when one I found at a junkyard..Problem solved!!! That was in 2012 and my van runs great six years later. Needles to say, these days I do all my maintenance work on my van myself.
Pertaining to your voltage issues, Issues use volt meter to check outputs from your alternator to make sure your gauge on dash board is not acting up .
You can find a few videos on you tube as to how go about it. . I may suggest to view a few videos from scannerdanner.com ( I think he's the best)
My personal experience: When I have AC on, front and rear fan on medium or high,,my van voltage indicator goes negative ( for lack or better word) but only when a red light. After I accelerate voltage goes back up. In my case, I have a other gadgets on van that draw some extra volts. I have a fairly new alternator and battery so the voltage indicator going negative has never been and issue for me.
My '92 goes negative on charging if I'm at idle and both front and rear ac are on high. Once I am moving it is fine. If I just run the front ac on high it is fine. I sit around 13.8-14.1 with a digital meter at idle most of the time (without ac on). I also have the 140 amp alternator. Do you have front and rear ac? What size alternator? They can't really test an alternator without doing a load test on a bench unit.
You may have trash between the radiator and condenser. Also when you say its overheating is it just getting hotter or is it boiling over? Hows your antifreeze look (bright green or yucky lol)? I had to put an external transmission cooler on mine to help lower my temps going up hill with the ac on (transmission going bad)
Just fixed overheating on my 1990 E350 RV with 460 engine. My radiator had lots of sediment deposits around all the cores. You could see it through the filler neck when the coolant level was low. After I removed the radiator it looked like that even worse on the bottom end of the radiator. I had not always used distilled water in my radiator - I will now!
I replaced the thermostat and the radiator, though I suspect it was the radiator just getting clogged up. I tried both Prestone radiator flush and Blue Devil. I did the week-long-run flush with both. They did nothing. I do not believe these products do anything useful with sediment encrustation on the cores. You might get lucky with vatting and rodding the radiator, but you can get a brand new radiator for about $250. I figured with a 30 year old radiator in mine it could be close to leaking anyway so I went with a new radiator. While at it, I also installed a dual temp gauge to monitor the engine coolant temp from a sensor in the filler neck (new neck) and one in the transmission test port. On my first trial run engine temps never exceeded 199F, which was just past the half-way point on the factory instrument cluster temp gauge.
I mention mechanical gauge because here is the reading on my van right after I bought it and replaced the temperature sending unit and thermostat..
In the first post I made you can see what the mechanical gauge was reading. When driving up a 2 mile steep grade the mechanical gauge would show between 205F and 210f till I had the radiator cleaned out by a radiator shop. Now the mechanical gauge will still go up to 205f on that same hill on a 95F day but that would be normal as the thermostat starts opening after the temperature reaches 192F.
The reason I did the block test is because I had just bought the van and have learned not to trust what a previous owner tells you. For all I knew there could have been a blown head gasket and the PO uses a chemical sealant. The block test was only $8 for the chemical and took about an hour to do all together and will let you know if there is a bigger problem before you go spending money.
In my case the gauge is off due to the IVR but I don't believe a 93 uses a IVR?
Thanks for all of the replies guys! I read this thread this morning before heading out to the vehicle. I may have figured out the problems but time will tell, which in this case is the next week. I did send them off for a grand... or terrible, adventure as I THINK we got it solved.
Temperature - when I went to Yellowstone the temperature was stable after the first day, as if a bobble had burped. I think filling the reservoir did the trick, because we took hit up the mountain this morning and it did all right. My Hope Is that I had under fill the radiator fluid by not using the reservoir. Monday will be over 90 degrees so I'll get a report from them then. I didn't know about rod and vatting so you added a page to my play book. Thank you. Clearly, the next project I need to tackle is ensuring a tip top cooling system. Multiple mentions were made of adding a more accurate temp gauge. Where would I place the probe? I really like this idea. Also, a mechanical one would be best right?
Voltage - this one I have mixed feelings about. I may have solved the issue, but may not have. So on my van, the previous owner installed what I assume is a 25 watt solar panel and accessory battery with an inverter. On a hunch and your comments about grounds I thought maybe the accessory battery (which I believe to be bad) was connected to the main alternator also. I crawled back under the rear conversion bench and disconnected the terminals. In doing this, I noticed the ground was wedged under the positive post. You guessed it! The ground had a gash down to the exposed copper wires. I disconnected the leads and taped everything off this morning. The temps were good and thetvoltage drain went from a ways below the middle to just around the charging/discharging point.
If they get back without issues, I'll take it to oreilly's a couple more times and then get the solar system figured out. No more loose battery though!!!!
Hopefully I didn't make a big mistake by sending them off after a single run in early morning temps.
Thanks for the warning about family. It's always nice to get an objective perspective :-)
Side note, this forum seems awesome. You guys are great, and having so many vanners in one place is rare!
Well the BIL and family returned on Saturday. The van ran smoothly for them. After removing the bad ground, the charging seemed to return to normal levels when under a load. They were driving every day that week and put on 1,400+ miles so it must be.
As for temperatures, it stayed cool until the last day on a pass in 90+ temps. He reported temps close to what I was seeing. I am ready to order a new radiator and water pump (water pump being for peace of mind and ease of replacement).
When looking, should I
Try to get a single row or double row radiator?
Economy or brand specific water pump?
I thought about electric cooling fans too but it seems they are expensive, would require a larger alternator and dontd improve performance noticeably. Eastern Washington can get cold in the winter but I have a subaru for commuting, so the faster warmup wouldn't benefit me.
Oh, do the secondary thermostats just slide in between one of the radiator fins, or would a true reading require direct contact with the coolant at the return port?
I ran the van in my driveway in drive, and ac on, with radator cap off, and outside temp at 94° (in the shade). The temp wouldn't go above the bottom of the M in "NorMal". I increased the rpms a few hundred (guess) and that did the trick. The thermostat never opened, the water pump wasn't pumping, and/or the circuit was somehow otherwise "shut" because the fluid never circulated.
The radiator fluid level kept rising over the fill neck until I realized I could squeeze the upper radiator hose and let air bubles out. After 20 minutes (8 at the increased rpm) the radiator fluid began boiling over and I shut down.
My overheating symptoms have never changed since the new thermostat.
I am very confused how the radiator fluid can boil over if the thermostat isn't open and the fluid in the engine block isn't circulating. (Assumption)
I am also confused why I can watch my temp gauge drop from the R to the O (thermostat opening) when running down the road on a cool day but then it will go to the upper part of the M on a hot day in drive with slight rpm increase while parked in my driveway.
The lower radiator hose did not appear to be collapsed.
Boiling point of water 212°
boiling point of radiator fluid 223° (in my van)
Thermostats RATED temperature 195° (Never tested it)
It it matters, the clutch fan appeared to be running from startup to shut down (20+ minutes)
Lastly, and possibly muddying the waters now.... I replaced the ac clutch due to a rattle while engaged. In starting the van today I can kind of hear the rattle is back.... Further back story is that I had the ac canister replaced from the R-12 to the new R-134A (as the AC system was dead when purchased from the PO)
I'm hoping the slow bubbling was gasses expanding and NOT the head gasket.
I am wanting to get this thing fixed so I'll be ordering a radiator and water pump in the morning. I will pull and test the thermostat while doing this too. I would like to get a mechanical temp gauge too. If anyone has advice, or lessons hard learned, I would love to get it before I hit "checkout" late tonight / early tomorrow.
Radiator:
Aluminum or whatever is cheapest?
Single row, or double (I'll be towing a 2k lb boat)
Water pump:
Brand preferences?
temp probe:
Wedged in the radiator fins or is there a port?
Seems I may have a frozen fan clutch too...? I'm not sure how many parts I should be throwing in it at once. It almost seems acceptable for the fan clutch to run full time since I'm still getting 15/gallon and the alternative is to buy one just so it won't run full time. (Gas savings wouldn't seem to make up the fan clutch cost).
Aluminum radiators are, from what I have read, said to be more efficient at dumping heat than the old brass ones. The reason, they say, is that the fins are more directly thermally coupled to the cores in an Aluminum radiator than they are in a brass one. So even though brass is a better thermal conductor, the solder in the brass radiators makes them less efficient overall. So they say. The number of rows doesn't matter as aluminum radiators have fewer cores but they are bigger/longer. So you can't compare rows to rows when switching copper to brass. If you stay with brass then get at least the same number of cores as you currently have.
A problem to watch out for with aluminum radiators is that they are more susceptible to galvanic and electrical corrosion. The first line of defense for this is to make sure your engine is well grounded. What you do not want is electricity flowing from the engine through the coolant through the radiator to ground. So the most important thing, from what I have read, is to make sure the engine is well grounded. A second line of defense is to install a sacrificial anode in the radiator. I bought a giant zinc-plug that threads into the drain plug on the radiator. The zinc will corrode before the aluminum. I contemplated electrically isolating the radiator, but in the end it was too much hassle. If it was just the fasteners I was going to wrap their shafts in shrink wrap tape and put some plastic washers and shims in place so the radiator could not touch the frame, but then you have to deal with the metal transmission cooler lines. I did not feel like cutting them.
I learned my lesson - I will only use distilled water in my coolant system from now on. Like you, my radiator looked like Yellowstone National Park inside with crusted-on sediment deposits around and in all the core openings. The bottom end of the radiator looked even worse with actual stalactites forming.
There are many places to buy radiators from. I was impressed with the Liland Global aluminum radiator I found - it was one of the few for my model that had the "sensor port" needed for the E40D transmission to pre-heat the transmission cooler lines.
However, my first radiator was shipped with no internal protection, and was damaged in shipping.
So I would not buy from CarID. They are, it seems, a drop-shipper. They take orders and then forward to the manufacturer who then ships to you. In the event of damage, they make you go through bureaucratic channels to have the manufacturer approve that there was damage before the manufacturer will send you a new one, instead of just sending you a new one straight away and settling up with their supplier on their own time/dime. So it took me 3 weeks to get a radiator.
If you buy from Advance Auto Parts, put something in your online shopping cart and let it sit for 24 hours. They will send you a "tickler" discount coupon good for 25% off. They routinely have 20% codes when you go to the web site (look at top of screen). Shipping over $25 is free, and you can return the item to any physical store for an instant refund, no questions asked. I had originally bought a brass-tanked radiator (with no sensor port) from them and sat on it until I got the CarID/Liland thing straightened out. CarID could learn a lot about customer service from Advance Auto Parts.
Whoever you order from, if they have an online chat, USE IT and ask for a price match or better deal. I got huge discount offers that way. Definitely shop around. Once you settle on a particular brand/part number of a radiator, it's easy to google for it. Be aware that the pictures shown on web sites may not be representative of the actual product. Confirm it has the ports you need before ordering. However many of the chat/phone staff are clueless and can only tell you what you yourself are seeing on the web site.
I like electrical gauges over mechanical ones as they seem easier to install and are less prone to leakage/kinking problems.
I installed my GlowShift temperature probes in the test port of my E40D transmission, and then I bought a custom thermostat housing / hose neck that was tapped to accept a sensor. Unfortunately, the neck was chrome plated after tapping the port and so nothing would thread into it as the plating made the hole too small. So I ended up having to go to Harbor Freight and shelling out another $15 for a tap and die set so I could re-tap the port. After that it worked great. Read the Amazon reviews before you buy.
I think thermal sensors are much better installed into the coolant flow than a clip-on arrangement.
07-07-2018, 02:11 AM
