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Previous owner swapped front end components, help with ordering new parts?
Good Afternoon Everybody!
So I recently got my truck back from the dealership (1993 F-250 4x4 w/ 460 7.5l) with all new ball-joints, leaf spring bushings, and axle bushings, drove it back to my apartment since they said, "everything is nice and aligned" and noticed that nothing felt aligned. As soon as I got to 50+ mph it felt as if the truck was being shaken back and fourth as if it were parked and someone was pushing the bed. I woke up today and called Ford and they said, "you're probably noticing that because the front still needs work on it, and it needs to get aligned". Go figure.
I've already spent a lot of money tackling this issue with Ford (originally the truck had a huge camber and wanted to get it fixed before new tires were put on) and their solution is to just keep throwing money at it. Since I've been in college I have none of my tools with me and no space to work on the truck, hence taking it to the dealership. However, I feel as if this isn't exactly a big job to do since I've done it when I worked on my 75 before.
The issue is that I can't get the car aligned with the current setup it has right now. The previous owner welded in bars to the tie rods to, I guess, "Beef Up" the suspension and steering. Attached below is a picture of the front end, and inside the door information about what it came with. I figure that replacing this setup, and buying all new Moog components would stop the rocking and help tighten up the front end. However, when I look online the geometry is completely different than what it is now. How I'm interpreting what factory spec was goes something like Pitman Arm to Tie rod end, adjustment sleeve, center link (Drag link) to the passenger side wheel, then from the hole in the center link, inner driver side tie rod, adjustment sleeve, outer tie rod. Right? As it stands right now, I believe I need to purchase:
*One thing Ford did note was that the ball joints that typically went into the truck didn't seem to work, I added the picture of the front end just in case there is some glaring mechanical issues I've missed (sorry for the poor lighting)*
Moog Center Link: MOOG DS1069 {#E5TZ3304B, F1TZ3304B} Problem Solver
Moog Left Outer: MOOG ES2728L {#E5TZ3A131D, F2TZ3A131A} Problem Solver
Moog Right Outer: MOOG ES2727R {#E5TZ3A131C, F2TZ3A131D} Problem Solver
Moog Left Inner: MOOG DS1072 {#E5TZ3A130B, F2TZ3A130D} Problem Solver
Moog Right inner:MOOG DS1069 {#E5TZ3304B, F1TZ3304B} Problem Solver
2x Moog Adjustment sleeves: MOOG ES2079S {Click Info Button for Alternate/OEM Part Numbers
Do I need all those tie rod ends? I believe I have one too many somewhere. Any help is appreciated!
Not sure if it matters, but I do use the truck for hunting and it gets occasional 4x4 action. I don't tow much, and the size of the tires were reduced one size from when this original setup was "crafted".
Never actually seen a setup quite like that. Does look like the main tie-rod ends are still standard rod ends, but the driver's side tie-rod's inner rod end (way over on the passenger side) looks to have been converted over to a spherical rod end (Heim Joint) setup. That would normally entail drilling out the tapered hole for a straight bolt.
Still looks like you have a camber issue too. Do you think so? Hard to tell in just that one pic from that angle, but it does kind of look like it.
Camber would be that way if the front springs have sagged and the TTB axles have pivoted up a bit, giving more negative camber.
With all the other stuff that was replaced, you would think it would feel pretty solid. Since it does not, I would do "the test" that will showcase anything that's out of whack with the front end.
That's where, with the full weight of the vehicle on the ground, you have a helper rack the steering wheel back and forth (about 1/4 to 1/2 turn in each direction) continually while you watch under the truck. If your helper has strong Popeye-like arms, they can do that with the engine off. But if they're normal folk, running the engine will help their outlook on life (and opinion of you!) on the happy side.
While they're doing this, you're under the front looking at every joint, link, rod end, bushing and bracket that you can see. Including frame members, cross members, and the area around the steering box.
The cross-member where it attaches to the frame rail, and the axle pivot points are known for cracking on modified trucks with larger tires. But more-so with lift kits, so if yours was ever lifted it might have been prone to frame cracking.
When you do this test, you can literally see anything bad from the movement side to side that should not be there. From the linkage to the wheel bearings and ball joints. Anything and everything will rear it's ugly head if it's present.
Heck, you can even check the rear springs and components with this test!
And one last thing... Depending on how bad that shake/vibration was (did it try to shake the steering wheel out of your hands?) it could be several things. Your description does not make it sound like a classic case of "Death Wobble" but it might be close.
During all the work, the tires may have swapped positions on the truck and previously had been worn in by the misalignment and perhaps previous abuse. So a tire may have been giving you those fits.
But check the linkage and stuff first, with the test described above. Let us know what you find.
without knowing what is in there, you will probably never get it rite. the springs are not correct for the center drop brackets. that is why the wheels are leaning.
without knowing what is in there, you will probably never get it rite. the springs are not correct for the center drop brackets. that is why the wheels are leaning.
I respectfully disagree, it's just parts and it can be made right. Looks like all that was done was that screwy HEIM joint on the drag link. I'd just buy a new Tierod and Drag link.
However that will not fix your camber. I am curious, as I'm learning the TTB stuff, how do you know the Springs are not correct?
I am curious, as I'm learning the TTB stuff, how do you know the Springs are not correct?
Because those tires look cambered waaaay in. Almost like it’s got lift brackets with stock leaf springs. Add some new springs with a bit of lift and the camber will improve.
That steering looks like bump-steer from Hell. I’d probably replace it with a factory setup.
I went through all the same stuff on my 1997 f250HD. I ended up swapping to a dana 60. My truck had positive camber because it had a helper spring (plowed with the truck). Those drop brackets are way too low, i would put my money on that truck having a lift kit that was removed at some point. those springs look like they have too much arch (f350 id guess)
id guess you need a set of the proper f250 springs and the stock pivot brackets TO START
Hey guys, sorry for the confusion, this is a picture of the truck before taking it into the dealership, I only uploaded it cause it was the cleanest picture of the steering geometry. Since getting it back, the camber seems to have been fixed way better than what it is in this picture (still not perfect partly due to what I now believe is those drop down brackets). When I get back home tonight after work I'll take a better picture to upload of the wheel alignment and steering components as they sit now. I could see how swapping the front end would be the best option (was the first thing I wanted to do after purchasing it due to the reviews), however, I simply do not have the space to do it in. So is life.
As far as the shaking is concerned, it never got up to the steering wheel and I don't think its anywhere near death wobble status as of now (judging from the YouTube videos I've seen of it). Here are some picture now, they're not the best quality but they're the most updated. I'm going to give Ford a call today and see what components they believe got swapped and the size of ball joints that were just replaced (not stock). If I were to redo the steering assembly do you think I should do the drop down brackets at the same time? Any requests for pics just ask and I'll upload.
If you put all the stock parts back in your geometry works. Once it goes up you need to get drop pitman arms and such, so you would have to figure out what parts you have stock and what has been changed
If you are dead set on saving that dana 50 get your stock springs, stock drops and stock pitman arm. Back end should have a 2 inch lift block. If you want it lifted buy the lift kit size you like as that will have what you need.
the truck needs to have all the right parts in addition to good bushings, ball joints, tie rod ends etc. You cant do one without the other
Nice looking truck!
I guess part of any solution is going to be, do you want to keep it at it's current lifted height? Or do you want a stock height truck?
If back to stock is your desire, make sure you can easily return the center pivots to stock before you buy new leaf packs and shorter shocks. Some drop brackets probably still just bolt/weld-on over the top of the stock ones, but it would not surprise me at all if some require the old ones to be cut off before installing the lifted version.
I don't see an upper bolt on that most visible bracket to indicate where the original pivot point might have been, but knowing that will also tell you exactly how much lift was installed. From here it looks like it could be either 4" or 6" and that is consistent with how the truck looks from the side too. Hard to tell from just a picture though, unless you look at them more often than I do. I'm sure the others will be more up-to-date on lift kits and there variables.
The fact that the dealer said the "normal ball joints didn't fit" was kind of strange I thought. Did they indicate what parts finally did fit? That would be really good information for a customer to know for future reference. Maybe they indicated it on your service receipt?
Your decal says it's got a #4498lb front GAWR, which is kind of in-between the listings of 38xx and 46xx pounds. But there are (I thought anyway?) only a couple of different ball-joint part numbers available, depending on the GAWR of the axle. And the listings I just viewed show a potentially different part number if the axle was equipped with 4.10 ratio gears. Do you know what gears were originally in yours?
No matter what though, you would expect the dealer to know, and have access to, the different versions that might crop up.
Same for the camber/caster adjusting collars frankly. Other than degree of offset, there are only so many styles that fit the typical TTB front end. I was under the impression that, other than there being some with hex-head, some with notches and some with cogs (and obviously the different offsets), that they all fit the various F250 front ends. Do you know if they did install new upper ball-joint eccentrics? That should be on your bill as well.
But hey, I'm not an alignment guy and have not sold the parts in a long time, so maybe there were variations I'm not aware of. Just because I never heard of it, never means something doesn't exist!
Again, you'd expect even the younger techs to know, or at least be able to determine if it was a swapped-in front end from another model truck. Maybe after twenty years I'm expecting too much of them since they deal with way too many other things on a daily basis and hardly ever see one of these anymore maybe.
Judging by your pics at least, they did manage to get things dialed in a little better than they were. In another "you would think" moment though, you would think they would have tried to up-sell you new steering linkage!
And not tell you "it's all aligned and good to go" then later tell you it "still needs alignment" after all that! What did you actually pay for I wonder?
I can't see in any of your pics those welded-on rods you were talking about. Where exactly are they?
Anyway, enough rambling gossip. Good luck with it. Let us know what else you find out about it.
Did the PO mention any other details about the modifications?
PO was pretty clueless when we first bought it, all he knew was that the rear tank didn't work (it did), and that the cats had been removed for emissions testing (registered out of smog testing so that didn't matter). The truck was originally for his daughter and she got tired of paying the gas bills for the 460. I'd like to keep it at its lifted height that it's at if I could. I could see going down maybe two inches but not back down to stock. The truck definitely seems as if it was modified at first to tow, and then to mess around with off-road judging from the setup when I originally got it. The original owners went as far as welding in a goose neck hitch in the frame, then a hole for it in the bed. The welding is on the tie rod ends, where you would typically have an adjustment sleeve. However instead the tie rod ends into the adjustment sleeves, they just screw into the pipe and welded them.
When I talked to the service adviser at Ford this morning he couldn't give me an exact answer to my questions and said he would go speak to the tech a little later. When they went to install the ball joints they said they ordered three different kinds to which they all didn't fit, and then ended up taking them to NAPA to get them sized and replaced. We've been going back and fourth with them and they've messed up a couple of times throughout all the work being done and were actually able to haggle down the price significantly so luckily the bill has not been ridiculously high. They've been pretty fair as far as the work that needed to get done as I've suggested other things that they've told me would be unnecessary as some of the components are fine and have much more life in them. I do not believe they installed new upper ball-joint eccentrics as it is not on the bill.
To date the...
Drop down bushings are new
leaf spring shackles and bushings are new
Cam slugs are new
Upper and lower ball joints are new
Gearbox is new
Tires just got replaced (all 4)
Some bent bolts have been replaced with correct torque specs.
Another thing is that the steering wheel keeps getting pulled to the left off of its center after I had the first alignment done. This took place at the same time the gearbox and cam slugs were replaced, and there is still a little bit of slack in the steering. I've worked on a couple Broncos (80's) and know that its hard as hell to get tight steering in some of them, but is it the same for these trucks? I would expect the steering wheel to be tight and responsive with the heavy loads this truck is expected to pull behind them. I will keep all of you updated and see how this unravels for future users that find themselves in the same situation. Hopefully I can get this solved soon because I have a lot more things I'd rather be doing on the truck that are way more fun lol.
Good luck with it. Let us know what else you find out about it.