New Engine - Hands on Approach
#16
05-27-2018, 02:40 PM
I guess you've put a lot more thought into it than I have...lol. My truck probably won't get used all that often...it's just a weekend rider, so even if the plugs are hard to access, it shouldn't be often. As for the 1 1/2" primaries being better for torque, they very well could be...I have no idea. An 1/8" on a 302 is probably splitting hairs, especially at street RPM's.
#17
05-27-2018, 02:55 PM
I guess you've put a lot more thought into it than I have...lol. My truck probably won't get used all that often...it's just a weekend rider, so even if the plugs are hard to access, it shouldn't be often. As for the 1 1/2" primaries being better for torque, they very well could be...I have no idea. An 1/8" on a 302 is probably splitting hairs, especially at street RPM's.
For me this is my only real form of transportation since I basically forgot about my '78 Mercury and that needs the full works to get running again after sitting the five years its almost been sitting now. But I stopped driving that car daily cause the vinyl top has done a number on the roof and every time it rains you get wet. So I been putting that car off till I can strip the body down and have it all fixed and repainted with a new vinyl top.
#18
05-27-2018, 03:05 PM
Post Fiend
So a 351 cfm 2V realistically would be adequate for a street 302 then. I don't think I ever seen my tach move much past 4,000 rpm when I floor her. Either the tach is off which I don't think its off that much or its just the C6 needs the vacuum modulator adjusted which I never messed with after I replaced the old leaking one.
I can get an edelbrock intake manifold they come with a 2V adapter to mount the stock 2V on.
My big thing is I can get the Summit M2008 series carb, its a 600 CFM 4V vac secondary with electric choke. its a one piece design so there is no gaskets below the fuel level and from the research I done its made by Holley for Summit. Also has annular boosters all for $280 with tuning DVD for this 600 CFM carb. Also is universal throttle hook up but has a built in Ford kick down. The Edelbrocks didn't have that, had to get a ford kick down adapter which put the throttle way out over the valve cover.
Needless to say I have no problem spending an extra $216 for an edelbrock intake manifold, saves me time cleaning my old cast iron 2V intake. But question is 2V adapter and run the 351 CFM 2V and let it ride or do this for the time being then upgrade to the Summit Racing 600 CFM 4V.
This is the carb.
https://www.summitracing.com/parts/s...00vs/overview/
Engine builder says its the same junk that ford had for their old 4V and the thing never worked right nor stayed tune and never really made any power. I don't know if its based off the old ford 4V or not.
All I know is it looks better than the edelbrock carb which has mechanical weighted secondaries where this has vacuum operated secondaries.
I can get an edelbrock intake manifold they come with a 2V adapter to mount the stock 2V on.
My big thing is I can get the Summit M2008 series carb, its a 600 CFM 4V vac secondary with electric choke. its a one piece design so there is no gaskets below the fuel level and from the research I done its made by Holley for Summit. Also has annular boosters all for $280 with tuning DVD for this 600 CFM carb. Also is universal throttle hook up but has a built in Ford kick down. The Edelbrocks didn't have that, had to get a ford kick down adapter which put the throttle way out over the valve cover.
Needless to say I have no problem spending an extra $216 for an edelbrock intake manifold, saves me time cleaning my old cast iron 2V intake. But question is 2V adapter and run the 351 CFM 2V and let it ride or do this for the time being then upgrade to the Summit Racing 600 CFM 4V.
This is the carb.
https://www.summitracing.com/parts/s...00vs/overview/
Engine builder says its the same junk that ford had for their old 4V and the thing never worked right nor stayed tune and never really made any power. I don't know if its based off the old ford 4V or not.
All I know is it looks better than the edelbrock carb which has mechanical weighted secondaries where this has vacuum operated secondaries.
Your Engine builder I hate to say is a half wit. The Summit carb is updated version of the old holley 4010 which is loosely based off the Autolite/Ford 4100 4 bbl.
Basically a 4BBL version of the 2BBL 2100/ 2150 you currently have, the 4100 use all same basic bit's as the 2100's, venturi's, accelerator pump, Floats and seat, jets, primary throttle shaft, power valves, choke assembly, etc etc..
The 4100 is the most efficient, reliable, simplest easiest to tune and consistent 4BBL out there just as the 2100/2150 is the most reliable, simplest, easiest to tune, and consistent 2BBL out there.
The 4100 was just never made in big flowing CFM numbers, 480 CFM and 600 CFM was it. So they never gained huge traction by the performance crowd in the 60's when cubes were king and were mostly over looked. But for the small blocks you could not get a more efficient reliable 4BBL carb as long as you did not need more than 600CFM, you could not and still can not get a better 4BBL carb than the 4100 for applications up to 600CFM.
This is why Holley did the 4010 in the first place to take advantage of the 4100's inherent benefits. But they had some engineering issue and quality control problems initially with the 4010 and it soiled the reputation of the of the 4010 out of the gate.
The Summit carb had some of the same problems initially also but they seem to have been long rectified.
#19
05-27-2018, 03:13 PM
Post Fiend
That's good to hear. I heard some came with the adapter for the factory throttle cable bracket and others required you to purchase separately.
Sadly I didn't see any shorty BBK headers listed for a 85-96 F150 truck. I will double check none the less just to be sure. I really like the headman headers weve used them at work and they fit great and look great. Best part is lot of them come with the OEM style connection at the flange so they bolt up to stock systems. None of this paper gasket header collector gasket bs to blow out.
I would love a roller block but I ended up with a $5,000 engine off the bat and I am like do I really want to spend $5,000 on the GT40 explorer engine to put it in a truck with 31" tires a C6 transmission and 2.90:1 axle ratio out back. This is a driver so I started thinking maybe I could cut corners save money and get something better than my stock smog engine that was rebuilt by the ****ty local engine shop nearly 20 years ago. Now I am looking at doing the 94-96 E7 head long block as the long block with core and shipping is only like $15 more than what I would be spending now. Down side is I don't have a core to turn in as my engine is not a 94-97 E7 head engine. No big deal its only like $320-$350 for the core. I can always take and go through this motor and have a spare. Realistically there is nothing wrong with this engine it ran great. The balancer broke the side out and spun on the crank. Then in the process of getting the pinched crank bolt out, that big 5/8" bolt snapped off in the crank with about an inch of bolt left in the crank.
Sure I could pull the engine and swap in a new crank for $150. But it still leaves me with a engine that leaks oil and burns oil. The crappy engine shop here that did the head work they just knurled the valve guides and didn't replace them so from day one this engine with 10W30 would burn a quart of oil in 75 miles of highway driving. Didn't smoke how ever and didn't foul the plugs out with oil fouling just would eventually foul out with ash deposits. So in my mind to pull the engine just to throw a crank in it would not be smart. I would have to reseal the whole engine and get head work done. Engine builder I know said to rebuild those stock heads both of them properly and to stock specs would be close to $650 for the pair of heads. So I would be at close to $1,200 to get this good engine fixed properly.
Then that doesn't account for the chance of spending $1,200 and then the engine is great and fine then it breaks a ring or burns a piston or some un known mechanical failure inside the engine happens a year or two down the road. Would make me wish I had just put a new engine in and been done.
My biggest worry is using the 94-97 long block and then not seeing any change in power because I am running the oem stock intake and 351 CFM 2150 carb. I could get the Performer Intake for $216.95 which isn't a big deal but I am afraid the 351 CFM carb might not be big enough for this engine with better heads. I know my '78 Mercury has a 351W under the hood that runs great with the stock 351 CFM 2150 carb. I feel if a 351 CFM 2150 carb can feed 351 Cubes it should feed 302 Cubes. But then we are talking about different animals as well as I am sure the E7 heads will flow more air/fuel than the stock 351W heads from '78 so now I am wary.
I understand fully that the engine will run with a smaller carb it just wont make as much power, hell boss at work has a limited dirt car that his son drives its a high rpm race 350 sbc and they are running a damn chokeless 2150 2V carb. So I know smaller will work. I just hate the thought of doing this work and find out the truck doesn't even have the power it had before cause the carb is limiting the power.
But I will just have to give it a go. Engine builder I know that we used to use at work but he takes too damn long and doesn't give but a year warranty on his stuff, he told me out right that Summit 4V carb built by Holley for Summit is nothing but a copy of the old Ford 4V carb that was junk. So now I am worried if I am going to have drive ability problems compared to the 2150 I have now. This carb I never had to mess with the adjustment on it, just get in hit the throttle fire up throw it in gear and go.
Sadly I didn't see any shorty BBK headers listed for a 85-96 F150 truck. I will double check none the less just to be sure. I really like the headman headers weve used them at work and they fit great and look great. Best part is lot of them come with the OEM style connection at the flange so they bolt up to stock systems. None of this paper gasket header collector gasket bs to blow out.
I would love a roller block but I ended up with a $5,000 engine off the bat and I am like do I really want to spend $5,000 on the GT40 explorer engine to put it in a truck with 31" tires a C6 transmission and 2.90:1 axle ratio out back. This is a driver so I started thinking maybe I could cut corners save money and get something better than my stock smog engine that was rebuilt by the ****ty local engine shop nearly 20 years ago. Now I am looking at doing the 94-96 E7 head long block as the long block with core and shipping is only like $15 more than what I would be spending now. Down side is I don't have a core to turn in as my engine is not a 94-97 E7 head engine. No big deal its only like $320-$350 for the core. I can always take and go through this motor and have a spare. Realistically there is nothing wrong with this engine it ran great. The balancer broke the side out and spun on the crank. Then in the process of getting the pinched crank bolt out, that big 5/8" bolt snapped off in the crank with about an inch of bolt left in the crank.
Sure I could pull the engine and swap in a new crank for $150. But it still leaves me with a engine that leaks oil and burns oil. The crappy engine shop here that did the head work they just knurled the valve guides and didn't replace them so from day one this engine with 10W30 would burn a quart of oil in 75 miles of highway driving. Didn't smoke how ever and didn't foul the plugs out with oil fouling just would eventually foul out with ash deposits. So in my mind to pull the engine just to throw a crank in it would not be smart. I would have to reseal the whole engine and get head work done. Engine builder I know said to rebuild those stock heads both of them properly and to stock specs would be close to $650 for the pair of heads. So I would be at close to $1,200 to get this good engine fixed properly.
Then that doesn't account for the chance of spending $1,200 and then the engine is great and fine then it breaks a ring or burns a piston or some un known mechanical failure inside the engine happens a year or two down the road. Would make me wish I had just put a new engine in and been done.
My biggest worry is using the 94-97 long block and then not seeing any change in power because I am running the oem stock intake and 351 CFM 2150 carb. I could get the Performer Intake for $216.95 which isn't a big deal but I am afraid the 351 CFM carb might not be big enough for this engine with better heads. I know my '78 Mercury has a 351W under the hood that runs great with the stock 351 CFM 2150 carb. I feel if a 351 CFM 2150 carb can feed 351 Cubes it should feed 302 Cubes. But then we are talking about different animals as well as I am sure the E7 heads will flow more air/fuel than the stock 351W heads from '78 so now I am wary.
I understand fully that the engine will run with a smaller carb it just wont make as much power, hell boss at work has a limited dirt car that his son drives its a high rpm race 350 sbc and they are running a damn chokeless 2150 2V carb. So I know smaller will work. I just hate the thought of doing this work and find out the truck doesn't even have the power it had before cause the carb is limiting the power.
But I will just have to give it a go. Engine builder I know that we used to use at work but he takes too damn long and doesn't give but a year warranty on his stuff, he told me out right that Summit 4V carb built by Holley for Summit is nothing but a copy of the old Ford 4V carb that was junk. So now I am worried if I am going to have drive ability problems compared to the 2150 I have now. This carb I never had to mess with the adjustment on it, just get in hit the throttle fire up throw it in gear and go.
So you fears of not having a big enough carb are unfounded.
And as for the carb see above.
#20
05-28-2018, 10:37 AM
Your Engine builder I hate to say is a half wit. The Summit carb is updated version of the old holley 4010 which is loosely based off the Autolite/Ford 4100 4 bbl.
Basically a 4BBL version of the 2BBL 2100/ 2150 you currently have, the 4100 use all same basic bit's as the 2100's, venturi's, accelerator pump, Floats and seat, jets, primary throttle shaft, power valves, choke assembly, etc etc..
The 4100 is the most efficient, reliable, simplest easiest to tune and consistent 4BBL out there just as the 2100/2150 is the most reliable, simplest, easiest to tune, and consistent 2BBL out there.
The 4100 was just never made in big flowing CFM numbers, 480 CFM and 600 CFM was it. So they never gained huge traction by the performance crowd in the 60's when cubes were king and were mostly over looked. But for the small blocks you could not get a more efficient reliable 4BBL carb as long as you did not need more than 600CFM, you could not and still can not get a better 4BBL carb than the 4100 for applications up to 600CFM.
This is why Holley did the 4010 in the first place to take advantage of the 4100's inherent benefits. But they had some engineering issue and quality control problems initially with the 4010 and it soiled the reputation of the of the 4010 out of the gate.
The Summit carb had some of the same problems initially also but they seem to have been long rectified.
Basically a 4BBL version of the 2BBL 2100/ 2150 you currently have, the 4100 use all same basic bit's as the 2100's, venturi's, accelerator pump, Floats and seat, jets, primary throttle shaft, power valves, choke assembly, etc etc..
The 4100 is the most efficient, reliable, simplest easiest to tune and consistent 4BBL out there just as the 2100/2150 is the most reliable, simplest, easiest to tune, and consistent 2BBL out there.
The 4100 was just never made in big flowing CFM numbers, 480 CFM and 600 CFM was it. So they never gained huge traction by the performance crowd in the 60's when cubes were king and were mostly over looked. But for the small blocks you could not get a more efficient reliable 4BBL carb as long as you did not need more than 600CFM, you could not and still can not get a better 4BBL carb than the 4100 for applications up to 600CFM.
This is why Holley did the 4010 in the first place to take advantage of the 4100's inherent benefits. But they had some engineering issue and quality control problems initially with the 4010 and it soiled the reputation of the of the 4010 out of the gate.
The Summit carb had some of the same problems initially also but they seem to have been long rectified.
So I know that he doesn't know everything, with him its hit and miss. Like he proclaims my boss is wrong that no engine especially a GM engine will run with the dist installed 180* out. Well I have to say hes a ****ing idiot because when I was younger I helped my dad put a intake on his '81 Corvette with a 350, we didn't check for compression stroke just stabbed the dist in. Ended up being 180* out, spent the next day and a half trying to figure out why the engine kept dieseling when you would shut the key off. Cranked up and ran fine just wouldn't shut off. But apparently to him that never would happen but yet I experienced it myself.
So I understand that he can be wrong. I did look at reviews on Summit for the Summit carb and it has excellent rating of nearly 5 stars. How ever looking at the 1 star reviews the bad reviews are from 2014-2017. Only two in 2017, one is his carb wouldn't idle down and sitting over night the bowls were dry on his carb. The other one is he loves it but living in California he says 45 - 60 degree temps with high humidity the carb runs horribly as it prone to ice up then a few minutes later it runs great. He probably is running a open element airfilter. Me I plan on reusing my OEM air filter and I plan on welding or have welded on a bolt to the number one cylinder header tube so I can form a sheet metal stove for the warm air airfilter hook up to attach to which should eliminate icing in colder weather for me.
But if the problems this carb has had are now resolved well then I wont have a problem with spending just under $300 for a 600 CFM version. Would be cheaper than buying a larger 2150 carb reman than the 351 CFM one I have now.
I don't mind running a 4V carb especially the Summit one. It has a pure electric choke which is better in my book than the electric assisted hot air choke I currently have. Only thing I would have to change is run my own fuel line hook up as the fuel log supplied would put it right against the coil.
But now on the other hand if the 2150 I have now with the oem or edelbrock performer intake manifold will perform great for a street vehicle well then I might just save my money and just stick with the 2150 then. Only way I would go with the 4V one is if it would net me better mileage when cruising since the primaries would be smaller than on the 2150.
Only thing that would be a bit different is my charcoal canister I would have to unhook and remove the wiring for the purge valve and everything since the Summit carb doesn't have the fuel bowl vent hook up to the canister. Not a huge deal in my eyes. I would have to look and make sure the wiring could just simply be left there and unplugged as I hate to cut original wiring in case I for some reason decide to go back original.
#21
06-01-2018, 06:13 PM
Well I still haven't placed an order. I got my refund back to PayPal yesterday but it still hasn't shown up in my bank account as of today. Im tempted to move money over from savings and make my purchase.
In other news I am seriously looking at running the Cloyes True Street Roller timing set for use with two piece fuel pump eccentrics. Only thing is I been nagging myself if I put it on 0 for the adjustable crank sprocket would that be proper timing for the roller cam. I don't know if ford kept their retarded timing sets in 94-96. Hate to go to this trouble and run this and find out I changed the power band and doesn't run properly.
In other news I am seriously looking at running the Cloyes True Street Roller timing set for use with two piece fuel pump eccentrics. Only thing is I been nagging myself if I put it on 0 for the adjustable crank sprocket would that be proper timing for the roller cam. I don't know if ford kept their retarded timing sets in 94-96. Hate to go to this trouble and run this and find out I changed the power band and doesn't run properly.
#23
06-01-2018, 06:36 PM
Now I just need to wait for PTP to email me back with the cam specs for their long block 94-96 so I can verify them being oem ford spec. If I remember right 94-96 has the Explorer cam and I want to verify this long block has that cam before I start getting too into it cause if not then I will have to buy one.
#24
06-01-2018, 07:59 PM
Doing a little playing around on my old DD2000. If this long block has a F4TE explorer cam like I hope it does, based off the specs I found online if they are correct with the flow data for stock E7TE heads it looks like there is no reason for me to run an Edelbrock performer intake and a 600cfm summit carb.
It shows with 9:1 compression with the 351 cfm 2150 that it is peaks at 184Hp @ 3500 rpm and 329 Ft Lbs @ 2,000 rpm. Bumping up to 9.2:1 compression which is the variance I found these engines can run shows only a 2 to 3 point increase.
Running a 600 CFM carb it is showing 193 HP @ 3500 rpm and 335 Ft Lbs @ 2,000 rpm. So a 9 HP increase @ 3500 rpm and 6 Ft Lb increase @ 2,000 rpm.
I need to input the GT40 head flow data as that might be a potential upgrade down the road and see what the figures look like but I think none the less 300 ft lbs of torque would be a considerable increase over my stock smog era 302.
Scratch that I just noticed I had the cam advanced 4* when I was looking at the numbers. Installed straight up it is 192 HP @ 3500 RPM and 338 Ft Lbs @ 2,000 RPM 9:1 compression with 351 CFM 2150 carb. Switching to a 600 cfm Summit carb it shows 200 HP @ 3500-4,000 rpm and 344 Ft Lbs @ 2,000 rpm.
I am liking the peak hp covering 500 rpm range but 3,500 - 4,000 rpm is not useable for me as 2500 rpm is free way speed for me of 65-70ish mph.
It shows with 9:1 compression with the 351 cfm 2150 that it is peaks at 184Hp @ 3500 rpm and 329 Ft Lbs @ 2,000 rpm. Bumping up to 9.2:1 compression which is the variance I found these engines can run shows only a 2 to 3 point increase.
Running a 600 CFM carb it is showing 193 HP @ 3500 rpm and 335 Ft Lbs @ 2,000 rpm. So a 9 HP increase @ 3500 rpm and 6 Ft Lb increase @ 2,000 rpm.
I need to input the GT40 head flow data as that might be a potential upgrade down the road and see what the figures look like but I think none the less 300 ft lbs of torque would be a considerable increase over my stock smog era 302.
Scratch that I just noticed I had the cam advanced 4* when I was looking at the numbers. Installed straight up it is 192 HP @ 3500 RPM and 338 Ft Lbs @ 2,000 RPM 9:1 compression with 351 CFM 2150 carb. Switching to a 600 cfm Summit carb it shows 200 HP @ 3500-4,000 rpm and 344 Ft Lbs @ 2,000 rpm.
I am liking the peak hp covering 500 rpm range but 3,500 - 4,000 rpm is not useable for me as 2500 rpm is free way speed for me of 65-70ish mph.
#25
06-01-2018, 08:21 PM
I just had my 302 with GT40 heads on the dyno all day yesterday. It's working very well so far. If you ended up with the larger chambered GT40 Explorer heads like mine, they would be lower compression than the E7TE heads, if the same pistons were used. I had to re-order flat-top pistons just to get my compression to 9:1. I could have planed the heads to get the chamber sizes down, but I had to order pistons anyway, so that was the easiest route to take.
#26
06-01-2018, 08:30 PM
I just had my 302 with GT40 heads on the dyno all day yesterday. It's working very well so far. If you ended up with the larger chambered GT40 Explorer heads like mine, they would be lower compression than the E7TE heads, if the same pistons were used. I had to re-order flat-top pistons just to get my compression to 9:1. I could have planed the heads to get the chamber sizes down, but I had to order pistons anyway, so that was the easiest route to take.
None the less DD2000 which I understand isn't accurate for numbers it does give an idea pattern wise, the pattern I am seeing is a 600 CFM carb upgrade doesn't net me much power which tells me the difference between my 351 CFM 2V and 600 CFM 4V is very small flow wise.
Only thing I can do left would be to figure up the CFM for a 302 at 5,000 RPM then figure how much is 75 to 85 percent which is the range of volumetric efficiency of a stock street engine which should in my thinking give me about what CFM the engine would need.
#27
06-01-2018, 08:40 PM
https://lmr.com/products/what-are-gt40-heads-mustang
#28
06-01-2018, 08:44 PM
Mine were measured at 65cc, which appears to be correct based on the info linked below. Mine have the small head bolt holes and no thermactor ports, so they're definitely Explorer heads.
https://lmr.com/products/what-are-gt40-heads-mustang
https://lmr.com/products/what-are-gt40-heads-mustang
I plan on just blocking my Thermactor ports on the E7 heads. I don't plan on connecting the air pump again after I do the swap. Not even sure if I will hook up the ERG again. Might just block the EGR with a block off plate. I might still get a Edelbrock Performer manifold could get it with EGR valve but not sure.
More and more I think about it, I just honesntly don't believe a Edelbrock Performer intake is going to make enough of a performance gain to be worth the nearly $300 price tag for it.
I know I will be running the Headman shorty headers, its either run them or buy replacement manifolds. I am really excited about getting the off road Y pipe from Jegs for my truck and get the cat back stock exhaust system then install my own muffler in place of the supplied one. Im anxious to get an exhaust system that doesn't have the sound of an exhaust leak on acceleration.
#29
06-01-2018, 09:19 PM
Well now this is a very interesting development. Summit has a CFM calculator street is 85% and for 5,000 rpm for a 302 lists 371 CFM which isn't much bigger than my 351 CFM. But I was browsing to see if they had a 4V carb that was smaller than 600 CFM, well apparently the Summit M2008 carb comes in smaller sizes than 600 CFM and 750 CFM like their dvd states.
So far I found a 500 CFM 4V which I might go with that might be sized a bit more properly for a stock street 302.
https://www.summitracing.com/parts/s...00vs/overview/
Need to look some more see if they got a smaller one than that cause Summit`s Calculator at 110% efficiency is listing 480 CFM for race use.
So far I found a 500 CFM 4V which I might go with that might be sized a bit more properly for a stock street 302.
https://www.summitracing.com/parts/s...00vs/overview/
Need to look some more see if they got a smaller one than that cause Summit`s Calculator at 110% efficiency is listing 480 CFM for race use.
#30
06-02-2018, 05:10 AM
I assumed you were thinking of what is most commonly available on the used or remanufactured market, and that would be Explorer GT40 and GT40P cylinder heads. Even those two are very different. The GT40P heads seem to be the most available by far. In a short time, I found three sets of them locally, which says a lot.
In any case, the GT40 heads are probably a moot point if you're trying to keep costs down and just get a good working engine in the truck.
Just get the basic roller cam truck engine like Conanski is suggesting above, install and get rolling. Then, as money allows, pick up the performance parts to install later.
In any case, the GT40 heads are probably a moot point if you're trying to keep costs down and just get a good working engine in the truck.
Just get the basic roller cam truck engine like Conanski is suggesting above, install and get rolling. Then, as money allows, pick up the performance parts to install later.