Need suggestions for improved towing (2000 6.8L V10 4x4)(Pic Heavy)
#16
Silly me...... first thing to check is your air pressures.
with 37” tires the correct pressures at max GVWR of the Ex is 35 psi.
(I run 40 due to preference because my BFG tires have a fairly soft sidewall.)
you can see the load and inflation tables here
https://toyo-arhxo0vh6d1oh9i0c.stack...s_20170203.pdfp
with 37” tires the correct pressures at max GVWR of the Ex is 35 psi.
(I run 40 due to preference because my BFG tires have a fairly soft sidewall.)
you can see the load and inflation tables here
https://toyo-arhxo0vh6d1oh9i0c.stack...s_20170203.pdfp
#17
Lots of info, thanks.
I managed to dig up the alignment sheet:
Primary Angles:
Front -
Caster Left - 2.1
Caster Right - 2.2
Camber Left - 0.1
Camber Right - 0.0
Toe Left - 0.0
Toe Right - 0.10
Toe Total - 0.10
Rear -
Camber Left - -0.9
Camber Right - -0.1
Toe Left - 0.0
Toe Right - 0.0
Toe Total - 0.0
Thrust angle - 0.0
Secondary Angles
SAI Left - 9.3
SAI Right - 9.9
Included Angle Left - 9.4
Included Angle Right - 9.9
Setback Front - -0.2"
Setback Rear - -0.4"
Track Width Diff - 0.6"
Wheel Base Diff - 0.2"
I managed to dig up the alignment sheet:
Primary Angles:
Front -
Caster Left - 2.1
Caster Right - 2.2
Camber Left - 0.1
Camber Right - 0.0
Toe Left - 0.0
Toe Right - 0.10
Toe Total - 0.10
Rear -
Camber Left - -0.9
Camber Right - -0.1
Toe Left - 0.0
Toe Right - 0.0
Toe Total - 0.0
Thrust angle - 0.0
Secondary Angles
SAI Left - 9.3
SAI Right - 9.9
Included Angle Left - 9.4
Included Angle Right - 9.9
Setback Front - -0.2"
Setback Rear - -0.4"
Track Width Diff - 0.6"
Wheel Base Diff - 0.2"
#18
2. Replace the snubbers on your a rear anti-wrap bar
3. Remove the rear “add a leaf” that is on your spring pack.
weight distribution hitch,
Ya probably but without knowing your axle weights with and without trailer as well as tounge weigh it is hard to really say what is required. If you have scale weights and we can make better guesses.
3. Remove the rear “add a leaf” that is on your spring pack.
weight distribution hitch,
Ya probably but without knowing your axle weights with and without trailer as well as tounge weigh it is hard to really say what is required. If you have scale weights and we can make better guesses.
1 - What and where is a snubber
2 - What is part is the anti-warp bar
3 - By "add a leaf" do you mean that long one at the bottom of the rear leaf springs, that's not part of the "pack"?
As for trailer axle weights - the sticker says 3500 lbs per axle...I don't recall what it said for tongue weight.
#19
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: chicago northwest suburbs
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Pirate, The rear block absolutely needs to go, no matter what he does with his X. The X definitely needs a rear sway bar, they all do. Lifted or not! Mine is stock and it was installed at 17k miles. Nothing wore out, it just wandered due to the soft springs, and if the tires are rated at 80psi they should be close to that pressure. If they are only rated at 40-50 psi then they should be set at 50. Everything else you mention is correct.
OP, the snubbers we are talking about go on the front of the half leaf. The one hanging out there by itself with the missing rubber block, you can see some of it left, it is bolted to the spring. However when you get the right springs that will be gone. The add a leaf is one of the leaves in the rear spring pack that doesn’t look factory. The factory leaves have plastic silencers in them, you can see where there are holes with the plastic pad snapped into it. The add aleaf is bolted into the spring pack, you can see it in the 3rd rear suspension picture. Bottom line get rid of those rear springs and lift blocks.
OP, the snubbers we are talking about go on the front of the half leaf. The one hanging out there by itself with the missing rubber block, you can see some of it left, it is bolted to the spring. However when you get the right springs that will be gone. The add a leaf is one of the leaves in the rear spring pack that doesn’t look factory. The factory leaves have plastic silencers in them, you can see where there are holes with the plastic pad snapped into it. The add aleaf is bolted into the spring pack, you can see it in the 3rd rear suspension picture. Bottom line get rid of those rear springs and lift blocks.
#20
Pirate, The rear block absolutely needs to go, no matter what he does with his X. The X definitely needs a rear sway bar, they all do. Lifted or not! Mine is stock and it was installed at 17k miles. Nothing wore out, it just wandered due to the soft springs, and if the tires are rated at 80psi they should be close to that pressure. If they are only rated at 40-50 psi then they should be set at 50. Everything else you mention is correct.
.
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I’d love to hear your reasons why the blocks need to go. Oh ya, I’ve also owned and built 3 excursions and cured wander on a few dozen customers.
What do you think the sway bar is doing that it has any effect on wander.
When you say soft springs, can you explain that ? What spring rate do you consider soft and what spring rate would you recommend for his ex ?
Also, how do figure “soft springs” cause wander ?
Finally, Not going to even argue aiir pressures with you as you are so far off the facts it is funny. Air pressures are figured on the tires volume and the load they will carry. Look at the chart. But if you want to get deep into you you should know I’ve worked with several tire companies and their engineers developing new tires so you should do some further research and bring your A game if you want to debate it further.
#21
Join Date: Oct 2006
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Ahhh an engineer! That explains a lot! All knowledge is based on paper, but when it comes to actual real world use it gets lost. Show me one off road rig with lift blocks that actually works. Yes I know how air pressures work. I also know what does and doesn’t work firsthand. And I along with everyone else knows how terrible the factory rear springs are in the X, no debate there! not even going to argue any longer!
OP, just do what the majority of us are recommending. We all tow and know what the X can and can’t do.
Good lick!
OP, just do what the majority of us are recommending. We all tow and know what the X can and can’t do.
Good lick!
#22
Lots of info, thanks.
I managed to dig up the alignment sheet:
Primary Angles:
Front -
Caster Left - 2.1
Caster Right - 2.2
Camber Left - 0.1
Camber Right - 0.0
Toe Left - 0.0
Toe Right - 0.10
Toe Total - 0.10
Rear -
Camber Left - -0.9
Camber Right - -0.1
Toe Left - 0.0
Toe Right - 0.0
Toe Total - 0.0
Thrust angle - 0.0
Secondary Angles
SAI Left - 9.3
SAI Right - 9.9
Included Angle Left - 9.4
Included Angle Right - 9.9
Setback Front - -0.2"
Setback Rear - -0.4"
Track Width Diff - 0.6"
Wheel Base Diff - 0.2"
I managed to dig up the alignment sheet:
Primary Angles:
Front -
Caster Left - 2.1
Caster Right - 2.2
Camber Left - 0.1
Camber Right - 0.0
Toe Left - 0.0
Toe Right - 0.10
Toe Total - 0.10
Rear -
Camber Left - -0.9
Camber Right - -0.1
Toe Left - 0.0
Toe Right - 0.0
Toe Total - 0.0
Thrust angle - 0.0
Secondary Angles
SAI Left - 9.3
SAI Right - 9.9
Included Angle Left - 9.4
Included Angle Right - 9.9
Setback Front - -0.2"
Setback Rear - -0.4"
Track Width Diff - 0.6"
Wheel Base Diff - 0.2"
A few additional questions... I'm not too familiar with suspension parts...
1 - What and where is a snubber
2 - What is part is the anti-warp bar
3 - By "add a leaf" do you mean that long one at the bottom of the rear leaf springs, that's not part of the "pack"?
As for trailer axle weights - the sticker says 3500 lbs per axle...I don't recall what it said for tongue weight.
1 - What and where is a snubber
2 - What is part is the anti-warp bar
3 - By "add a leaf" do you mean that long one at the bottom of the rear leaf springs, that's not part of the "pack"?
As for trailer axle weights - the sticker says 3500 lbs per axle...I don't recall what it said for tongue weight.
if the shop you took it to told you it is fine you need to find another shop who is familiar with straight axle vehicles.
your toe is not in in spec and while your caster is in spec it is horrible. Keep in mind that even with all settings in spec you can stil create an ill handeling vehicle due to the possible combinations, the goal is to get within spec and a satisfactory combination of settings.
like I stated earlier the Ex handles best at a full 5.5 degrees of caster.
The spec is 3.5 +\- 2* and your at 2.1 and 2.2 is going to produce a squirrelly girl, especially with 0 toe.
find a shop that will put the caster to 5.5* and then put in a little toe in. ( Think mine is currently at +.5*)
any alinment shop worth their salt salt will also inspect all front steering and suspension components for wear as a proper alignment can not be done with loose bits.
i will answer your other questions in a separate post.
#23
Ahhh an engineer! That explains a lot! All knowledge is based on paper, but when it comes to actual real world use it gets lost. Show me one off road rig with lift blocks that actually works. Yes I know how air pressures work. I also know what does and doesn’t work firsthand. And I along with everyone else knows how terrible the factory rear springs are in the X, no debate there! not even going to argue any longer!
OP, just do what the majority of us are recommending. We all tow and know what the X can and can’t do.
Good lick!
OP, just do what the majority of us are recommending. We all tow and know what the X can and can’t do.
Good lick!
Nothing terrible with the factory rear springs, they just work better with more travel but that doesn’t make them terrible.
the “terrible” thing about the factory springs is the front springs sag and that exerbates the factor alignment setup they put in these.
When people do the modded rear spring setup they are really taking the Excursion 5” travel spring with 420lbs inch spring rate off and putting on softer F250 springs, But because the f250 main springs are to soft for the Ex you mods them using the Ex bottom 2 leafs, the modded spring now has the same 420 lb in. Spring rate as the stock spring but with 8” of travel.
So if the stock Excursion springs are to soft I am asking why everybody doing the B mod setup make them the same spring rate as stock ? Answer, Because the stock springs are not “to soft” . Even if they were wander would not be the handeling trait produced, a lower ride height and lower payload capacity would be the result.
#24
For street use including towing look no further then the F250 trucks. It works fine as long as you have axle wrap under control and your setup has enough travel to accomplish its tasks.
the Op made zero mention of anything remotely related to axle wrap issues even though his anti-wrap bar which controls axle wrap is missing a key component. So like I said, the tall lift block would best to be replaced with a spring with more travel but I see no indication his current setup is running out of travel and bottoming out so no need to remove the block to fix the wander problem he is trying to solve.
#25
A few additional questions... I'm not too familiar with suspension parts...
1 - What and where is a snubber
2 - What is part is the anti-warp bar
3 - By "add a leaf" do you mean that long one at the bottom of the rear leaf springs, that's not part of the "pack"?
As for trailer axle weights - the sticker says 3500 lbs per axle...I don't recall what it said for tongue weight.
1 - What and where is a snubber
2 - What is part is the anti-warp bar
3 - By "add a leaf" do you mean that long one at the bottom of the rear leaf springs, that's not part of the "pack"?
As for trailer axle weights - the sticker says 3500 lbs per axle...I don't recall what it said for tongue weight.
the add a leaf leaf that I see on your is the second leaf from the bottom.
I circled the snubber, it is attached to the anti-wrap bar. ( this is not the first leaf spring )
the axle weights you listed are the trailers capacity, how you actually have it loaded and setup will determine how it handles and what changes may need to be made, I.e. a WD hitch and what size bar will be needed.
Fwiw, my 9000 boat trailer does not require WD hitch, my 7000 lb car trailer does not require a WD hitch
My 10,000 camper trailer needs a WD hitch, my 14,000 toy hauler needs a WD hitch.
#26
While Pirate is far from perfect (show me someone who is) his resume is such he has earned more respect from the offroad racing community than most people on here are aware of.
Pirate knows his stuff, and he knows it well. If he had his own garage I wouldn't hesitate to drop my Ex off with him to to whatever I needed.
Stewart
#27
#28
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Pirate has more real world experience, that's helped develop real world engineering that works in the field, than most people who populate forums like this can understand.
While Pirate is far from perfect (show me someone who is) his resume is such he has earned more respect from the offroad racing community than most people on here are aware of.
Pirate knows his stuff, and he knows it well. If he had his own garage I wouldn't hesitate to drop my Ex off with him to to whatever I needed.
Stewart
While Pirate is far from perfect (show me someone who is) his resume is such he has earned more respect from the offroad racing community than most people on here are aware of.
Pirate knows his stuff, and he knows it well. If he had his own garage I wouldn't hesitate to drop my Ex off with him to to whatever I needed.
Stewart
run those blocks with 37” tires and towing a trailer is Ok is a gamble! I for one do not take any worth out of anything he posts just from those statements alone. And yes the F250’s run blocks and don’t have wandering issues because the springs aren’t weak (read compliant) like the X! OK, now I’m done posting here. I’m really hoping the OP can see through all of this, who is doing it right and who is recommending things based on beliefs.
good luck to the OP. If you want you can PM me or even Tom aka WE3ZS
#29
so you see no issue running those tall blocks (I’m guesstimating at 4”, plus the factory X block! Come on now? Maybe you think he is pretty good at what he does, but recommending it is OK to
run those blocks with 37” tires and towing a trailer is Ok is a gamble! I for one do not take any worth out of anything he posts just from those statements alone. And yes the F250’s run blocks and don’t have wandering issues because the springs aren’t weak (read compliant) like the X! OK, now I’m done posting here. I’m really hoping the OP can see through all of this, who is doing it right and who is recommending things based on beliefs.
good luck to the OP. If you want you can PM me or even Tom aka WE3ZS
I already explained the blocks will increase axle wrap but with the anti wrap bar that issue is solved for. if the OP was having issues that were a result of axle wrap or there was evidence of axle wrap symptoms of axle wrap we could suggest changes to solve that. But there is no evidence or complaints from the OP that axle wrap is a problem. if you disagree with that please explain in detail.
Your claim that the springs are "weak" what do even mean by weak ? are you claiming that in fact they do not have a 420 lbs Inch spring rate ? please explain.
#30
I pulled the pic off the internet because it clearly swooped the snubber, No idea what that link is from, my guess would be the person who installed it was making due with what they had available. if there is another function it is unknown to me.
unknown on the tracking specs, let me look at it when i get home.