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Another starter issue, grinding

  #1  
Old 11-29-2017, 10:52 PM
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Another starter issue, grinding

Hey guys. Tried to search through the archives, looks like it's beat to death but couldn't find exactly what I was looking for.
I have a 78 F-100 -460 c6. 2wd
Back when it had the 351m I had this transmission rebuilt. Bought a starter and HAD to use a shim to correctly engage. . Later, swap 460 onto that trans, bought a new starter(more money than sense) used same shim again and kept old starter as a spare.
2yrs, 5k miles later. Notice grinding/squeaking noise(flywheel). Few days later it leaves me in a parking lot, grinding but not engaging. Go home, grab that old spare, put it on and made horrible noise but did engage and get me home.
All Bell housing bolts were loose, one of four tourque converter bolt loose. All have been tightened. Tried both starters, with And without spacers. Same noise and now dead in shop, will not engage. I did not see any missing or flat teeth All the way around flywheel. Starter gears look good on both, did install better of the two.
So I am planning on buying a starter, but I am leaning towards needing that flywheel. Does anyone have a measurement on gear teeth depth or someway to check wear?
 
  #2  
Old 11-30-2017, 12:04 AM
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eh? I had issues on a standard and the flywheel teeth were worn. I flipped over the ring gear while i had engine out because the starter only wears one side of the flywheel ring gear. Im sure that you can see the whole ring gear right? (motor and trans sides of teeth) It isnt going to wear them down equally, you would have one side of the teeth rounded off so to say. Automatic Flexplates can crack(usually out from crankshaft bolts) and that definitly would make a noise, but usually sounds like a rod knocking the whole time the engine is running.
You do have a sheet-metal plate between the engine and bell-housing don't you? I can't think of another reason you would have such engagement problems. I am not a 460 or M guy or an automatic guy so I am unaware if there are usually any tricky things that go on. I can say I have never had to shim anything when replacing a 460 starter though. Im quite certain bellhousings are the same (obviously they interchange) for those engines? someone correct me if wrong on that?
I would think that the starter pinion would wear before the ring gear, maybe both of your (used) starters are trash. Starters have more moving parts than the rest of it to be at fault.
 
  #3  
Old 11-30-2017, 12:10 AM
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315M and 460 can use the same starter.

I have never had to shim either application

Manual trans and auto trans use DIFFERENT starter and flywheel.

"Starters & Distributors -- Before you drag your old 351M/400 engine to the beach house and install your new anchor on your boat, pull off the factory distributor and the factory starter. Why? Because they will bolt on and work perfectly on your new 429/460 engine. If your 429/460 has a points-type distributor (most pre-1975 engines) then you should reuse your Bronco's Duraspark II electronic distributor. It will really bring that old 429 or 460 to life! Also, your new engine may have a bad starter on it or may have not come with one at all. You might as well save your self a few bucks and use the Bronco's original starter.

One other neat little item you can use on your 429/460 is a 92-93 7.5L F-Series gear-reduction starter. They are smaller, weigh less, and have more torque than the standard full-size Ford 351M/400/429/460 starters. If you plan to install headers on your Bronco with a 429/460 engine, then the gear-reduction starter will give you a little more room to work with in a cramped engine compartment. You can purchase these starters from most auto parts stores for around $200.00."

X2 on this question, "You do have a sheet-metal plate between the engine and bell-housing don't you?" Yes it matters.
 
  #4  
Old 11-30-2017, 11:30 AM
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X3 on the spacer or alignment plate.
I think the flexplate/flywheel needs to be called into question if all of those bolts were loose. It could've developed a crack. Plus if its ring gear is torn up, it's going to have to come out anyway.
Probably not an issue, but did you use the flywheel from the 460 when you put it in the truck? You could run into balance issues when mixing and matching flywheels between 351/400s and 429/460s - if they even interchange...

I found loose and missing bellhousing bolts, and loose transmission bolts on mine, and when I fixed that situation, my clutch chatter problem went away.
 
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Old 11-30-2017, 12:26 PM
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Yes I do have the sheet metal plate installed.

In not sure where the flywheel came from, I think off the 460.
I got rid of the M years ago, I can only pray it's attached to a long rope submerged in a deep lake

Before I checked all the bolts, truck had develped an rpm based vibe. Only while truck was in motion. Neutral or in gear, but never while sitting still in park or N. I had narrowed that down to flywheel or tourque converter. But it started up fine.

This grinding and not engaging pretty much happened overnight on a truck that has been running fine for a year now with those components. With the exception of that motor vibe.
​​​​
 
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Old 11-30-2017, 12:33 PM
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7 3 starter. $200 is steep but I like the idea. Any mods necessary at all?
already put headers, mid length? Your options are limited when you swap an M out of an f100 with a 460. Had to find special motor mounts and called like 3 header companies and summit racing before locating some Sanderson headers that fit.
 
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Old 11-30-2017, 12:45 PM
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Flex plate. $60-200 summit racing. . Is my engine internally balance or external?
I have stock internals except for cam an I have the stock harmonic balancer on front.
 
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Old 11-30-2017, 02:25 PM
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Best way to tell is by looking at the crankshaft numbers, but that's unrealistic. Usually the numbers on the block are the accepted way to determine engine balance. I wouldn't go by the numbers on your flexplate just in case... Not sure if you can tell by looking at the front pulley/harmonic balancer. I saw this discussed here in the last month or so.
Do you know what the 460 came out of?
 
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Old 11-30-2017, 02:30 PM
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It's a new longblock from AutoZone. Ordered for a 78 f 150. Apparently f100s didn't have the 460 option in 78
 
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Old 11-30-2017, 02:32 PM
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Pretty sure ones that late were externally balanced, but you should wait to hear from someone who knows firsthand.
 
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Old 11-30-2017, 03:18 PM
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460 engines were externally balanced starting mid 1979. Before that they were all internally balanced.

Block code # D9TE -60??-AB(?)
Check your casting code.....

And Ford engines didn't have spacers for the starter.
 
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Old 11-30-2017, 03:24 PM
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General location of that marking?
 
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Old 11-30-2017, 03:54 PM
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Originally Posted by redneck_davis View Post
General location of that marking?

Outside block, right side, behind the starter.

A caveat....Since Ford changed these engines mid-year to external balance, some still might have the internal set-up......hatchet weight in front of the har-bal and weights on the flywheel/flexplate....find the code and post it up.

Mebbe Mr Bill will slide by and give us the real deal...
 
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Old 11-30-2017, 11:56 PM
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DIVE 6015 2ba. . I think the "ba" Mayb "ab2". Grrrrr. Will have to check again. I wrote it down, in the shop.
 
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Old 12-01-2017, 09:12 AM
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I'm using a 92-97 460 starter from DB Electrical and love it so far. It was like $50 I think pretty straight forward to hook up. I've bought a few starters from them and so far no issues.
 

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