Want to ask if anyone ever heard of a Regulator causing a charging problem in the sense that the system half *** works but not enough to charge the battery?

What I am getting at is the following, this is on my late 1968 production year Ford 3000 diesel tractor. I put a new generator and regulator on just over a year ago with a new battery.

Well I put a new battery in today but checking the charging system I have 12.2 volts at the battery reguardless at idle or at 1200 rpm. At the back of the generator the armature at idle is putting out 8.8V and at 1000 rpm its putting out 13-14V, and by 1200 rpm its pushing 24V. At the regulator the D terminal which connects to the armature is reading the same voltage as at the armature. The E terminal at the regulator to ground is a good ground but no voltage on this terminal when using a test light connected to ground. Both battery terminals are hot and they have to be or the tractor wont start up and run.

The shop manual I am reading is saying to test the generator to unplug both terminals the field and armature and jumper them together then start the tractor and check it should slowly climb in voltage as RPM is increased. so that is what it is doing now and I am wondering if a shorted regulator can cause this but at the same time prevent the current from the armature to be transferred to the battery itself?

I have a new regulator coming in since its cheaper but I am going to try Saturday when I go back to the grounds and mess some more with the tractor. Hopefully it didn't hurt the generator running it like this for a couple hours of work. If so I guess ill just have to break down and spend $100 for a new generator.

My problem is I am pouring over the schematics and cant figure out how it is supposed to put charge to the battery through the regulator other than the one battery terminal to the solenoid for the starter which if that was no good the tractor wouldn't start as that main battery wire branches off the regulator on the second battery terminal to the ignition switch which then spreads through the gauges and lights which everything works.

 

Well I was looking at schematics last night till about 2 in the morning. Looks like its the regulator. The regulator is designed with a cut out relay that completes the circuit between the armature circuit and the battery circuit. I think that cut out relay is not working thus not connecting the generator to the battery circuit so no charge. I also think the voltage regulating part of the regulator is no good either since it is not regulating the voltage. Its the only thing I can think of.

 

Rusty, jumpering the FLD and ARM is called "full fielding" the generator, it's a useful troubleshooting test, but only long enough to determine the generator is working. It will smoke the generator if left connected that way very long. Generally when measuring at the regulator always use analog type voltmeters. The voltage is choppy and digital meters get confused. If just measuring charge voltage at the battery they work OK, but if you're getting off into the weeds then the analog type is your friend.

 

Hope you get it fixed. But putting a GM alternator on it would be simple way to go. Usually the bracket mods needed are not too bad. And it only needs two wires, one to the battery and one to the charge light in the dash.

 

The "cut out relay" will not pull in until the voltage output of the GEN is greater than battery voltage. Without this the battery would try and drive the GEN as if it was a motor.

8.8V and at 1000 rpm its putting out 13-14V,
At the point where the GEN is putting out 13-14 volts add a load, like a headlight, directly to the ARM. The GEN voltage output will drop a little, but increase again as you add RPM.

CJ3A Generators

JIm

 

Well I cant switch to a alternator as the generator has the proof meter drive on the back of it. Without it no tach nor hour meter.

But I didn't unplug anything the generator is going up to 24V at 1200 rpm on its own I am wondering if the regulator is screwed up internally and is causing this.

Cause Ive never seen a generator that put out 8V at idle Ive seen them always put out slightly more than battery voltage the amperage is what changes. But none the less I am seeing 24V at the armature at 1,200 rpm and at the armature circuit at the regulator the D connector it is reading 24V as well at 1,200 rpm but at the battery terminal at the regulator or at the battery is reading 12.3V still. If I flip headlights on the battery voltage at battery drops to 12.2V from the original 12.3V. Something is not connecting the generator to the battery nor is it regulating the voltage as the voltage based off my reading should be regulated between 12 and 14 volts.

 

I am not too familiar with the generator system and wiring. But I can tell you from experience with alternators, it sounds like the generator output is not hooked to the battery. I looked at some old Ford generator wiring on cars and trucks, and I see what you are saying about the relays inside the regulator, some of them had up to 3 relays inside.

The reason I say the generator is not hooked to the battery, usually there is no way to raise the voltage of the battery that high(24v). When I have seen alternators go wide open, they can produce well over 100 volts depending on the rpm. But when they are hooked to a battery, in this same scenario their voltage rarely goes above 16+ volts. All they end up doing is cooking the battery and wiring, and boiling all the water out of the battery, but the poor battery always seems to keep a reign on the voltage.

This also goes along with your readings on the battery without loads and with loads. Since you have the schematics, I would trace the path that the generator armature takes from the generator to eventually the battery to charge. See if there is a break in the path somewhere. If not in the regulator, then possibly a fusible link in the wiring somewhere that is burnt.

 

Does your regulator look like this? Can you remove the cover to inspect the points?

I also agree the generator is not connect or charging the battery.

If the sense point for the regulator is on the battery side, the regulator will see the need to increase the voltage output higher than 12.3 volts.
How Classic Car Voltage Regulators Work

 

Generators have a very limited output / RPM range, which is why they are offline at idle.

I had an aircraft engine that had a generator. The engine RPM range was 700-2700.
In order to have the generator work at normal cruise power range meant it didn't work at idle. Even at 1200 RPM it would only put out a couple of amps.

Jim

 

Sounds like you have the shop manual, it should have all sorts of tests to eliminate and isolate problems to either generator or regulator, or wiring. Heavy jumper wire or cable comes in handy for quick and dirty testing. For example a jumper cable connected from negative post on battery to generator case. Also regulator needs a solid reference to ground. Ford eventually ran another wire from generator directly to regulator body. With all that said if it hasn't been serviced in a while, and you're having some trouble - and because of the fact you want to keep it - I'd pull the generator and clean everything up, generator kits aren't expensive. New brushes, garnet sandpaper on commutator, new bearings, etc. Make sure the generator ground itself is solid and clean to block and brackets. Beware the new generator regulators are often not very good. NOS or NORS is your friend here.

 

Tedster9, the shop manual doesn't show a way to test the regulator for the problem that it is showing. I have two problems and the shop manual for the generator is saying to connect armature and field terminals on the generator together it should slowly increase voltage as you slowly accelerate the engine. If so it is good. Well its doing that now with everything hooked up properly. For the regulator it talks about testing output at the battery and turning the cam to make adjustments on the regulator coils. This is a replacement regulator that does not have the adjustment cams it is preset and there is no way to make fine adjustments on it. Basically it works or it doesn't work.

Generator was replaced about a year ago just before I put a new battery in. I had a problem with the generator light staying on all the time. So I installed a new Generator and installed a new regulator. I had some issues with the new regulator the light would go out and function right but it seemed like the generator or regulator was using polarity but it stopped doing that after a few uses and it worked fine till the battery went to **** on me like 3 weeks ago and would barely crank the tractor over. I checked the battery before I removed it after sitting 3 weeks it showed 11.1V but putting headlights on and hitting the key the lights cut off meaning there was no amps coming from the battery.

Also that's not the regulator I have. Mine has six terminals. Below is a diagram. The WL is a terminal and the dotted line from terminal B is on a double spade at B. I checked D at the generator and at the regulator it is showing the same voltage. I checked at B and I am getting battery voltage even when terminal D is showing 24V at 1,200 rpm. Following this diagram B is connected to D through the cutout relay. If this relay is not completing the circuit it would prevent the charge from reaching the battery. But now I don't know why the generator is running at full field and not being regulated to maintain a max of 14-15 volts which is supposed to be the regulating voltage for the generator based off the shop manuals. Currently the warning lamp is working right, the tractor also starts which means all circuits from the generator through the regulator to the battery is all connected as the key switch that powers the lights and the starter gets power after the regulator so B terminal is fine on the wiring from the battery all the way to the key and headlights. D terminal is fine from the generator to the regulator. The field terminal how ever I did not check that but field terminal if it is some how shorted to D in the relay could be the cause of the non regulating voltage.

None the less the more I think about it and the more I look at this diagram and wiring diagram for the tractor the regulator is the only thing that stops the connection from the generator to the battery. I have battery voltage at both battery terminals on the regulator meaning there is no break between the battery and the regulator. I also have voltage from the generator at D at the generator and at the regulator terminal D which means that circuit is fine. Only thing is F that is left or WL. Mine has a terminal for WL but the regulator on the tractor now doesn't have a WL terminal I think. I know I didn't see one when I was unplugging the terminals and replugging them in multiple times to clean any corrosion off thinking that might be the cause of this problem.

 

I need to look I believe I still have the original Lucas regulator in the back of the truck if I do I guess I could throw that one back on pull the cover off cause if its the real original one it might still have the adjustments so I can fine tune it.

 

Before you install the old original regulator, remove the cover and use a ignition point file to clean up all 3 of the coil contacts... if they need it.
Leave the cover off so you can watch the operation of the contacts while it is running.... (Cal-Van Tools 693 Ignition Point File)

Using engine RPM to control output voltage, get it close to 13-14 volts and manually push closed the cut out relay contacts, if needed.

I like the older style regulator as they are adjustable via spring pressure by bending the taps.

For an older tractor I would try to set the voltage to 13.5 volts by adjusting spring pressure.

Jim

 

Hm, regulator adjustment shouldn't really be necessary. The cutout should be "close enough" it either works or it doesn't. Current output, need to be able to measure 30 amps or more, do you have that capability? I checked a service replacement Motorcraft regulator bought from that place in Waxahachie and it was dead nuts on at 30 amps.

Voltage regulation should already be very, very close to correct. Wouldn't hurt to clean the point contacts though. I like to use a crisp dollar bill soaked in carb cleaner or naptha and drag through. Regulator adjustment is tricky and "touchy". If you insist on trying this, and I know you will - ha ha - Seems to work better by bringing the voltage down below where desired and bring it back up, sort of like tuning a guitar string. Have to make allowances for temperature, bounce off your readings with the manual figures - and then check with the regulator cover back on. The cover interacts with the regulation voltage by attenuating the magnetic field, not temperature.

 

I don't think B is connected to D for some reason.

I would not worry about your voltage regulation. Since the battery is not connected to the gen, there is no current flowing through the regulation circuit. If you look at it, they just use resistors. No current flow through a resistor means no voltage drop, so the regulator is not going to regulate until you get the juice flowing through it.

P.S. I see the regulation circuit flows current from the field circuit. So while that regulates the output of the gen, I still would not worry about the regulation until I got the other problem fixed first.