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Old 09-10-2017, 01:27 PM
Walleye Hunter Walleye Hunter is online now
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Long Start Issue

This applies to a 2001 F-350 with 73,000 miles on the engine. Engine oil level is good, batteries charged, HPOP reservoir is full and passes Cody test with flying colors. Fuel pump runs for 20 seconds at key on. Start takes about 6 seconds. If I shut the key off and restart immediately it starts in under 2 seconds but if I wait about 30 seconds it's a 6 second start. Here is an AE that I ran on it if it helps any, it has me stumped. FWIW it seems to start quicker when AE is hooked up. ?? An odd whir type of noise comes out from somewhere under the hood when I first turn the key on and when I clear the codes with AE.


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Old 09-10-2017, 02:16 PM
Walleye Hunter Walleye Hunter is online now
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OK, I know that this is going to sound odd but...I opened that file up in exel and the truck is starting in 2 seconds with AE hooked up and without it it takes 6 seconds. What could cause that to happen?
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Old 09-10-2017, 02:55 PM
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Hussler Hussler is online now
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Mark, is the diagram above while cranking and no start portion of it? The only thing I see is the FIPW is low and needs to be > than 1.0 ms to fire the injectors. It's at about 0.5 ms, normal for cranking, which means it is waiting for HP oil to ramp up to ~ 500 PSI. But the graph indicates you are well above that value, unless it's an inferred value where the PCM will ignore the actual ICP sensor data and run in open loop. Long cranking times will cause this symptom, false data, but I don't know where in the cranking time frame this was captured?
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Old 09-10-2017, 03:02 PM
Walleye Hunter Walleye Hunter is online now
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Those are three different starts with koeo in between. It's easier to decipher and precise to the .xx second on the exel spreadsheet if I knew how to get it on here.
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Old 09-10-2017, 03:14 PM
Walleye Hunter Walleye Hunter is online now
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Let's see if this works. FIPW jumps up at 1.6 seconds or so but the truck does not start this fast without AE connected, I'll hook Forescan and see how it acts.
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File Type: csv Ford-PowerStroke 7.3L-2001-September 10 2017 4.csv (29.0 KB, 10 views)
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Old 09-10-2017, 03:27 PM
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OK, then it might be the 2X view you posted, just guessing. I don't use AE and don't know if expanding the view if the charts numbers will graph appropriately. If that's the case everything looks good, but without a time frame from crank to start it's a guessing game.
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Old 09-10-2017, 04:13 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hussler View Post
OK, then it might be the 2X view you posted, just guessing. I don't use AE and don't know if expanding the view if the charts numbers will graph appropriately. If that's the case everything looks good, but without a time frame from crank to start it's a guessing game.
The time frames can be seen in detail in the excel file that I uploaded. that 2x thing is the number of parameters included in each graph, I could select 4x and all four would be on one graph. But...all is good on that now that I have dissected it, for some reason it starts quicker with AE connected.
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Old 09-10-2017, 07:15 PM
ExPACamper ExPACamper is online now
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You have voltage, RPM, and FIPW.

The leaves fuel and compression.

Air/water/debris in fuel line?

What oil are you running? 15w-40w could extend your start times as our weather is cooling overnight (low 40's last night). Maybe try plugging it in for about 3 hrs, see if that helps?

73k is barely a teenager, LOL.
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Old 09-10-2017, 08:50 PM
Walleye Hunter Walleye Hunter is online now
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Originally Posted by ExPACamper View Post
You have voltage, RPM, and FIPW.

The leaves fuel and compression.

Air/water/debris in fuel line?

What oil are you running? 15w-40w could extend your start times as our weather is cooling overnight (low 40's last night). Maybe try plugging it in for about 3 hrs, see if that helps?

73k is barely a teenager, LOL.
I do not know what oil is in it but it is clean and I really don't want to change it out. I do need to check the fuel filter but the fact that it starts fast when connected to AE really has me scratching my head. Ya know you can't fix it if you can't diagnose it. I hooked Forescan up and got the long start but I can't, for the life of me, figure out how to bring up the file on it on my iPad. I think I recorded it but don't know where to find it, any help there would be great. I didn't think about plugging it in but that's easy enough to do.
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Old 09-10-2017, 10:45 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Walleye Hunter View Post
I do not know what oil is in it but it is clean and I really don't want to change it out. I do need to check the fuel filter but the fact that it starts fast when connected to AE really has me scratching my head. Ya know you can't fix it if you can't diagnose it. I hooked Forescan up and got the long start but I can't, for the life of me, figure out how to bring up the file on it on my iPad. I think I recorded it but don't know where to find it, any help there would be great. I didn't think about plugging it in but that's easy enough to do.
I don't use Forescan at the moment, sorry can't help on that one.

If the oil is thicker or whatever, plugging in *should* help there. Just make sure the heater is working on it when you plug in

The only reason it "starts faster on AE" that I can think of...are you waiting with the key on for AE and maybe getting a longer glowplug cycle?

Other than that, maybe AE is adding "turbo battery power" through the OBD connector? LOL.

Just to ask this, too...your ICP sensor is plugged in, not running disconnected on the internal default tables, right?
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Old 09-11-2017, 03:06 AM
pirschwagon pirschwagon is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Walleye Hunter View Post
This applies to a 2001 F-350 with
73,000 miles
Engine oil level is good
Batteries charged
HPOP reservoir is full
Passes Cody
Start takes
restart immediately it starts in under 2 seconds
wait about 30 seconds it's a 6 second start.


Graph time per division and comparison with CMP are good. I would be curious, but not necessary to see the DFPW (Desired Fuel Pulse With) for comparison.

I down loaded the CVS file and I see you have the Duty Cycle at 0-100. I would change that 0-60 to accurately reflect its load during the test. On a 0-100 you're at 55%, still on the 60 scale you're at about 45% - That's too high. 20 on a 0-60 Scale is the average specification. 0-65 would ensure it doesn't run off the top of the chart.

Did you run the engine with the VC's off? That would be my suggestion. A minor leak which allows a quick restart may be your issue. Sometimes you can't identify a minor leak with air. Did you use the adapter or use a plug? Like the IPR, the adaptor has an )-Ring which pressurizes just the Oil Rails.

The % climbing and falling off in the file data, that becomes suspect. You can also try moving the ICP to the other head and monitor voltage - the lesser of the two (longer ramping of the voltage) would commonly be the problem Bank.

Just a couple more...

Is the IPR Field Coil secured?
Is the oil the correct viscosity, classification, and has it been changed?

I read some other comments: A fuel delivery problem would not cause the data we see in the chart. Your ramping up late in the process (HPOP). Why? If everything is correct, you are "leaking" somewhere. FPW is determined by programming and several sensor inputs. That's why I would be curious to see the DFPW. It may, or may not provide another direction for diagnosis. On the other hand, I have no idea about AE. And, honestly, unless you have a CMP or IDM issue, we wouldn't see much there.

AE starting it sooner with AE? That's interesting. Try it with a cold start and see if temperature plays a role rather than AE - Just a suggestion. Otherwise, perhaps an electrical anomaly? More research and data. I know I can have the computer compensate. Not sure if AE has that option. If so, uncheck it.
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Old 09-11-2017, 08:39 AM
Walleye Hunter Walleye Hunter is online now
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ExPACamper View Post
I don't use Forescan at the moment, sorry can't help on that one.

If the oil is thicker or whatever, plugging in *should* help there. Just make sure the heater is working on it when you plug in

The only reason it "starts faster on AE" that I can think of...are you waiting with the key on for AE and maybe getting a longer glowplug cycle?

Other than that, maybe AE is adding "turbo battery power" through the OBD connector? LOL.

Just to ask this, too...your ICP sensor is plugged in, not running disconnected on the internal default tables, right?
I'm definitely waiting long enough for glow plugs and have tried unplugging the ICP, while there is oil in it, it does not act any differently.
Quote:
Originally Posted by pirschwagon View Post
Graph time per division and comparison with CMP are good. I would be curious, but not necessary to see the DFPW (Desired Fuel Pulse With) for comparison.

I down loaded the CVS file and I see you have the Duty Cycle at 0-100. I would change that 0-60 to accurately reflect its load during the test. On a 0-100 you're at 55%, still on the 60 scale you're at about 45% - That's too high. 20 on a 0-60 Scale is the average specification. 0-65 would ensure it doesn't run off the top of the chart.

Did you run the engine with the VC's off? That would be my suggestion. A minor leak which allows a quick restart may be your issue. Sometimes you can't identify a minor leak with air. Did you use the adapter or use a plug? Like the IPR, the adaptor has an )-Ring which pressurizes just the Oil Rails.
The % climbing and falling off in the file data, that becomes suspect. You can also try moving the ICP to the other head and monitor voltage - the lesser of the two (longer ramping of the voltage) would commonly be the problem Bank.

Just a couple more...

Is the IPR Field Coil secured?
Is the oil the correct viscosity, classification, and has it been changed?

I read some other comments: A fuel delivery problem would not cause the data we see in the chart. Your ramping up late in the process (HPOP). Why? If everything is correct, you are "leaking" somewhere. FPW is determined by programming and several sensor inputs. That's why I would be curious to see the DFPW. It may, or may not provide another direction for diagnosis. On the other hand, I have no idea about AE. And, honestly, unless you have a CMP or IDM issue, we wouldn't see much there.

AE starting it sooner with AE? That's interesting. Try it with a cold start and see if temperature plays a role rather than AE - Just a suggestion. Otherwise, perhaps an electrical anomaly? More research and data. I know I can have the computer compensate. Not sure if AE has that option. If so, uncheck it.
Is DFPW the same as mass fuel desired? I don't recall seeing the former in my options but will look.

Will do on duty cycle to 60%.

Negative on running with VC's off, don't want to dig in deeper unless I have to. Between starts you can see that ICP stays elevated a little and when compared to the first session before start it is at 0 so I'm thinking slow leak is not an issue. But I was thinking slow HPO leak myself, I think I ruled it out but not closed to that option yet. I used my adapter right to the head with an air hose, did not test the pump, hoses or IPR. I think I checked the tinnerman nut but will double check.

I will try a cold start, change duty cycle %, I have a spare IPR so I'll just change the magnet, see about DFPW and see what that gives me. If behavior is the same there I'll plug it in next and let it sit and see what it does.

Oh, and it was owned by a North Joisey Municipality, oil is clean but I don't know what it is. They had a lot of these things so I think (hope) they had the right oil down pat. Any tips on how I could tell?
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Old 09-11-2017, 03:59 PM
Walleye Hunter Walleye Hunter is online now
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Here's the results of today's work. Cold start took almost 10 seconds, glow plugs activated and stopped. It sure looks like ICP is taking a long time to come up. I could only get 4 sensors per screen so I took two shots to include mass fuel desired (if that's what you were looking for). Also attached should be the excel file of the run.

Thanks for the help.






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File Type: csv Ford-PowerStroke 7.3L-2001-September 11 2017 3.csv (41.2 KB, 4 views)
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Old 09-11-2017, 05:51 PM
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I'm still calling it fuel. After you try plugging it in, which I expect to cut starting time in half or a bit more (Fleets often found with 15w-40w, my guess) due to heating and thinning down the oil.

Why fuel?

RPMs and ICP The first little plateau (red) in the first screenshot *should* have started. It's a sputter. ICP is > 600psi, enough to start. It is getting a shot of fuel and sputtering, then dies immediately (no fuel/air/whatever) and then it takes time to build back up fuel pressure and actual fuel, then it sputters a bit, ICP follows nicely, DC% is a nice analog with ICP following, and it gets a little better RPM, almost starts...

Stumbles in between those couple of red peaks, but just not quite enough to keep it running, then completely out of fuel. ICP is still at 700psi, so that isn't killing it. RPMS are plenty for cranking and starting. Has to be fuel.

At least that is how it looks from my seat. I am always ready to learn something, but I'm thinking fuel/air/clogged intank/fuel bowl issues.

Thinner oil and/or block heater plugged in, I expect starting time to be shorter, but a similar kind of lethargic starting.

Hope this helps

Edit: Grab a jug of diesel, run a hose from the jub to the input side of the pump and see what happens. Keep in mind that if it was sucking air and doesn't have a FRx or RR, the air has to work its way through the injectors to get out of the rail. It may take a few starts and some running, so don't be too quick to judge it
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Old 09-11-2017, 06:07 PM
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The ICP only means something on that first chart if the sensor is working correctly.
You might want to chart it back to back with and without the ICP plugged in.
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