Is There A Difference
More Turbo
Joined: Feb 2017
Posts: 538
Likes: 4
From: Quad Cities Illinois
Anything can be an "investment". But it is a "Good" investment? That is the REAL question. I would agree you get most (probably not all) the initial engine investment back in terms of upgrading to the diesel engine. IF the engine has a good reputation.
However what you don't get back is the MAINTENANCE COSTS associated with that engine choice. This can be the hidden cost many are ignorant of (don't know about) or arrogant of (know but chose to disregard). Consider the higher costs of the diesel engines needing more oil (and more expensive oil to boot), more expensive filters, etc ... And diesels tend to more cost intensive when the warranty runs out too; repairs are often more expensive and more involved. It used to be, many years ago, that diesel engines were very simple and therefore easy to maintain and cheap to fix. That is LONG past now. Today's diesel engines are more complex than the gasser counterparts; more parts, more systems, more integration, etc.
If you look with open eyes and not clouded by emotion, you'll see that it really does not make sense to own a diesel for DD commuting or interspersed use. If you drive low annual miles, it will take a LONG TIME to even remotely get close to a payback on fuel savings. If you drive high annual miles, it will pay back much sooner. Using the diesel truck to pull your RV/boat for vacations will NEVER pay for itself.
It's OK to go ahead and get one anyway; just realize it's a "want" and probably not a "need". And it's likely to cost a lot more down the road than what the sales guy is telling you.
I'm not against diesels; I own one too. But I went into it knowing the REAL costs, and that it's probably never going to pay back the way some claim. The best reason to get a diesel the combination of two things:
1) you need the extreme capacity that only a diesel rig provides in terms of pulling power
2) you operate the rig full time, every day, where the use works towards the ROI
IF both of those are not true, you really don't need a diesel.
And "wanting" a diesel often ends up with dissatisfied owners. They get disillusioned by the power at first, and then the daily operations and costs take their toll ... there are lots of three to five year old trucks on used-car lots, often with lower miles, because the reality of owning a diesel sets in, where the owner was not diligent in researching the REAL costs of total ownership.
However what you don't get back is the MAINTENANCE COSTS associated with that engine choice. This can be the hidden cost many are ignorant of (don't know about) or arrogant of (know but chose to disregard). Consider the higher costs of the diesel engines needing more oil (and more expensive oil to boot), more expensive filters, etc ... And diesels tend to more cost intensive when the warranty runs out too; repairs are often more expensive and more involved. It used to be, many years ago, that diesel engines were very simple and therefore easy to maintain and cheap to fix. That is LONG past now. Today's diesel engines are more complex than the gasser counterparts; more parts, more systems, more integration, etc.
If you look with open eyes and not clouded by emotion, you'll see that it really does not make sense to own a diesel for DD commuting or interspersed use. If you drive low annual miles, it will take a LONG TIME to even remotely get close to a payback on fuel savings. If you drive high annual miles, it will pay back much sooner. Using the diesel truck to pull your RV/boat for vacations will NEVER pay for itself.
It's OK to go ahead and get one anyway; just realize it's a "want" and probably not a "need". And it's likely to cost a lot more down the road than what the sales guy is telling you.
I'm not against diesels; I own one too. But I went into it knowing the REAL costs, and that it's probably never going to pay back the way some claim. The best reason to get a diesel the combination of two things:
1) you need the extreme capacity that only a diesel rig provides in terms of pulling power
2) you operate the rig full time, every day, where the use works towards the ROI
IF both of those are not true, you really don't need a diesel.
And "wanting" a diesel often ends up with dissatisfied owners. They get disillusioned by the power at first, and then the daily operations and costs take their toll ... there are lots of three to five year old trucks on used-car lots, often with lower miles, because the reality of owning a diesel sets in, where the owner was not diligent in researching the REAL costs of total ownership.
Hotshot
Joined: Apr 2013
Posts: 10,128
Likes: 663
From: NH
I'm taking a little bit different approach. On a modern diesel like the 6.7, I see the "increased maintenance cost" as being $150 oil changes, which include the DEF refill, and done at the dealer. Otherwise, not much additional maintenance costs. Some owners may choose to run an additive like PM22 but it is not necessary. So, in 100k miles, the diesel truck spends $3,200 more dollars on oil changes and DEF refills, but the diesel gets an average of 5mpg better than the gas truck...which is about the difference. So in my estimation, after driving both diesel and gas trucks 100k miles, the actual cost of ownership is the same. At trade in time, the diesel may bring more money back...and for that whole time driving it, you had all that smooth power at your disposal.
After 100k on a modern diesel...yes, there are potential high maintenance costs. Here, the gas truck wins...
After 100k on a modern diesel...yes, there are potential high maintenance costs. Here, the gas truck wins...
Fleet Mechanic
Joined: Dec 2016
Posts: 1,821
Likes: 545
From: Florida
I'm taking a little bit different approach. On a modern diesel like the 6.7, I see the "increased maintenance cost" as being $150 oil changes, which include the DEF refill, and done at the dealer. Otherwise, not much additional maintenance costs. Some owners may choose to run an additive like PM22 but it is not necessary. So, in 100k miles, the diesel truck spends $3,200 more dollars on oil changes and DEF refills, but the diesel gets an average of 5mpg better than the gas truck...which is about the difference. So in my estimation, after driving both diesel and gas trucks 100k miles, the actual cost of ownership is the same. At trade in time, the diesel may bring more money back...and for that whole time driving it, you had all that smooth power at your disposal.
After 100k on a modern diesel...yes, there are potential high maintenance costs. Here, the gas truck wins...
After 100k on a modern diesel...yes, there are potential high maintenance costs. Here, the gas truck wins...
You know me. Never one to leave well-enough alone.
Couple things...
1. Fuel filter changes. Two filters for the 6.7, none for the 6.2. I honestly don't know the Ford filters' cost, but the two for the Cummins are $110 on Amazon, IIRC.
2. Mileage. I rented a 2017 6.7 (3.31 gears) for three weeks, and over that time, I averaged 14 mpg (hand-calculated), almost exclusively empty highway miles. Most mileage reports I've seen here seem to be about 15 mpg. The 6.2 seems to average about 12 or 13. Not a huge difference, but not a 5 mpg difference either.
At the end of the day, I'm unconvinced that the cost of ownership is the same.
Hotshot
Joined: Apr 2013
Posts: 10,128
Likes: 663
From: NH
I did forget about the filters. 6 or 7 filter changes in 100k miles, plus there is a new coalescer filter that is supposed to be changed at 75k miles. I can't seem to get pricing on any of these filters for the 2017. On the 2011-2016 trucks, both fuel filters could be had for about $55. The 2017 uses a new frame-mount filter; under-hood one looks the same. So there may be a few additional costs with diesel.
That said, I can only go by my experience. I had a 2015 CCSB 4x4 gas 6.2L and a 2016 CCSB 4x4 diesel 6.7L truck, both did exactly the same things for me...commute to work, tow my trailers, same location and trips. Gas lifetime average was 10.9; diesel lifetime average was 16.7mpg.
I will note my 2017 is a dually and so I expect a little worse economy, but it seems to be significantly worse than the 2016...so far, my lifetime average is 13.7mpg. Granted, most of that is winter miles / idling / 4x4 usage, etc. We'll see if it improves.
That said, I can only go by my experience. I had a 2015 CCSB 4x4 gas 6.2L and a 2016 CCSB 4x4 diesel 6.7L truck, both did exactly the same things for me...commute to work, tow my trailers, same location and trips. Gas lifetime average was 10.9; diesel lifetime average was 16.7mpg.
I will note my 2017 is a dually and so I expect a little worse economy, but it seems to be significantly worse than the 2016...so far, my lifetime average is 13.7mpg. Granted, most of that is winter miles / idling / 4x4 usage, etc. We'll see if it improves.
Hotshot
Joined: Apr 2013
Posts: 10,128
Likes: 663
From: NH
So clearly, there are savings...it just depends upon how much of a disparity there is between gas and diesel prices, how well you're doing on mpg, and how much you have to spend on oil changes and fuel filters.
The dealer changed the oil on my gas trucks for about $40. I was unable to do it for any less myself. On the diesel, my dealer charges my $157 including a DEF refill. I can purchase the same exact Motorcraft 10W30 diesel oil they are using for $54, plus the same Motorcraft oil filter for about $15 and 7.5 gallons of DEF for $30. So I can do the work myself for about $100.
New User
Joined: Apr 2017
Posts: 12
Likes: 0
Not really a frame difference, but diesels have a transmission cooler bolted to the front frame crossmember. The crossmember and all the brackets are there on gas trucks, but the cooler isn't.
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Tuned
Joined: Jul 2009
Posts: 393
Likes: 18
From: Irving
Anything can be an "investment". But it is a "Good" investment? That is the REAL question. I would agree you get most (probably not all) the initial engine investment back in terms of upgrading to the diesel engine. IF the engine has a good reputation.
However what you don't get back is the MAINTENANCE COSTS associated with that engine choice. This can be the hidden cost many are ignorant of (don't know about) or arrogant of (know but chose to disregard). Consider the higher costs of the diesel engines needing more oil (and more expensive oil to boot), more expensive filters, etc ... And diesels tend to more cost intensive when the warranty runs out too; repairs are often more expensive and more involved. It used to be, many years ago, that diesel engines were very simple and therefore easy to maintain and cheap to fix. That is LONG past now. Today's diesel engines are more complex than the gasser counterparts; more parts, more systems, more integration, etc.
If you look with open eyes and not clouded by emotion, you'll see that it really does not make sense to own a diesel for DD commuting or interspersed use. If you drive low annual miles, it will take a LONG TIME to even remotely get close to a payback on fuel savings. If you drive high annual miles, it will pay back much sooner. Using the diesel truck to pull your RV/boat for vacations will NEVER pay for itself.
It's OK to go ahead and get one anyway; just realize it's a "want" and probably not a "need". And it's likely to cost a lot more down the road than what the sales guy is telling you.
However what you don't get back is the MAINTENANCE COSTS associated with that engine choice. This can be the hidden cost many are ignorant of (don't know about) or arrogant of (know but chose to disregard). Consider the higher costs of the diesel engines needing more oil (and more expensive oil to boot), more expensive filters, etc ... And diesels tend to more cost intensive when the warranty runs out too; repairs are often more expensive and more involved. It used to be, many years ago, that diesel engines were very simple and therefore easy to maintain and cheap to fix. That is LONG past now. Today's diesel engines are more complex than the gasser counterparts; more parts, more systems, more integration, etc.
If you look with open eyes and not clouded by emotion, you'll see that it really does not make sense to own a diesel for DD commuting or interspersed use. If you drive low annual miles, it will take a LONG TIME to even remotely get close to a payback on fuel savings. If you drive high annual miles, it will pay back much sooner. Using the diesel truck to pull your RV/boat for vacations will NEVER pay for itself.
It's OK to go ahead and get one anyway; just realize it's a "want" and probably not a "need". And it's likely to cost a lot more down the road than what the sales guy is telling you.
And: Going on vacations at ALL will NEVER pay for itself.
I'm not against diesels; I own one too. But I went into it knowing the REAL costs, and that it's probably never going to pay back the way some claim. The best reason to get a diesel the combination of two things:
1) you need the extreme capacity that only a diesel rig provides in terms of pulling power
2) you operate the rig full time, every day, where the use works towards the ROI
IF both of those are not true, you really don't need a diesel.
And "wanting" a diesel often ends up with dissatisfied owners. They get disillusioned by the power at first, and then the daily operations and costs take their toll ... there are lots of three to five year old trucks on used-car lots, often with lower miles, because the reality of owning a diesel sets in, where the owner was not diligent in researching the REAL costs of total ownership.
1) you need the extreme capacity that only a diesel rig provides in terms of pulling power
2) you operate the rig full time, every day, where the use works towards the ROI
IF both of those are not true, you really don't need a diesel.
And "wanting" a diesel often ends up with dissatisfied owners. They get disillusioned by the power at first, and then the daily operations and costs take their toll ... there are lots of three to five year old trucks on used-car lots, often with lower miles, because the reality of owning a diesel sets in, where the owner was not diligent in researching the REAL costs of total ownership.
I pull a fifth wheel on vacations, occasionally pull equipment trailers for buddies. Will the gasser do it? Yes. Will the diesel do it with more margin for situational flexibility, safety? Absolutely. I've gotten the money I spent on every Powerstroke upgrade back at resale time, so the extra few bucks spent a year on oil changes is well worth it to me. A bigger cost concern for me is tires. The torque produced in normal daily unloaded driving, not punching it, takes a toll on the drive axle rubber. I rotate them on schedule and generally get them replaced at prorated prices. I've been told the 17's have torque limited in the first three gears specifically to help this, but I've seen no proof online.
Five or six years ago I worked with guys and everybody in the group was interested in pluggable electric cars. I was too, and still am. There was no use model I found that made it more cost effective than a basic no-frills subcompact. So that's what everybody should drive.
Senior User
Joined: Apr 2017
Posts: 216
Likes: 0
From: Denver
That is simply not true. It is going to vary greatly upon the difference in price between gas and diesel. Right now, in my town, diesel is +$0.14 over regular. In my comparison of a 5mpg difference, driving 1000 miles in the diesel at 16mpg and a current price of $2.43 / gal would result in spending $152 in fuel. The gas truck, getting 11mpg, same 1000 miles, at the current price of $2.29 / gal would result in spending $208.16 in fuel.
So clearly, there are savings...it just depends upon how much of a disparity there is between gas and diesel prices, how well you're doing on mpg, and how much you have to spend on oil changes and fuel filters.
The dealer changed the oil on my gas trucks for about $40. I was unable to do it for any less myself. On the diesel, my dealer charges my $157 including a DEF refill. I can purchase the same exact Motorcraft 10W30 diesel oil they are using for $54, plus the same Motorcraft oil filter for about $15 and 7.5 gallons of DEF for $30. So I can do the work myself for about $100.
So clearly, there are savings...it just depends upon how much of a disparity there is between gas and diesel prices, how well you're doing on mpg, and how much you have to spend on oil changes and fuel filters.
The dealer changed the oil on my gas trucks for about $40. I was unable to do it for any less myself. On the diesel, my dealer charges my $157 including a DEF refill. I can purchase the same exact Motorcraft 10W30 diesel oil they are using for $54, plus the same Motorcraft oil filter for about $15 and 7.5 gallons of DEF for $30. So I can do the work myself for about $100.
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Senior User
Joined: Apr 2017
Posts: 326
Likes: 1
Then there's the situation with running Diesels.
They like to be run. From what I understand, jumping into your Diesel for trips to Mickie D's, down to the Hitching Post for a beer, hauling Mama here and there, etc isn't all that good for them.
My situation is -- I'm 5 minutes from everywhere. And I don't like driving the Wife's Edge.
My friends see me in that and they might demand my Man Card.
But the truth is -- There's something intoxicating about the smell of a Diesel, there's something about all that power, the growl, the low rumble of a caged animal.
They're just -- Bad A$$
And I want one. Just not sure how dumb of a move it would be.
They like to be run. From what I understand, jumping into your Diesel for trips to Mickie D's, down to the Hitching Post for a beer, hauling Mama here and there, etc isn't all that good for them.
My situation is -- I'm 5 minutes from everywhere. And I don't like driving the Wife's Edge.
My friends see me in that and they might demand my Man Card.
But the truth is -- There's something intoxicating about the smell of a Diesel, there's something about all that power, the growl, the low rumble of a caged animal.
They're just -- Bad A$$
And I want one. Just not sure how dumb of a move it would be.
Hotshot
Joined: Apr 2013
Posts: 10,128
Likes: 663
From: NH
I drive mine every day - 5 mile round trip to work and lunch. Yes, it gets longer drives in the evening and on weekends, but I don't worry about it...
More Turbo
Joined: Apr 2017
Posts: 628
Likes: 12
From: Madison WI
Hotshot
Joined: Apr 2013
Posts: 10,128
Likes: 663
From: NH
I understand some people want just the power and no smoke or smell, but I've always thought the smell and sound were part of the appeal. Fortunately my Kubota tractor still delivers on all the classic diesel attributes.
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