I for one hope that the new Bronco will look similar to the 2004 Bronco Concept vehicle that never came to be. And if it's based on the Ranger platform with that look I for one would be ok with that. And like Tom and Tseekins both stated in previous post, I feel it would be smart for Ford to offer the Bronco in both a 2 and 4 door option. After all Ford claims this new Bronco will be a Wrangler fighter. I would also like to see solid front and rear axles, manual trans., and manual transfer case. But I doubt we'll see any of those. Either way I'm extremely excited to see what Ford has in mind for the new Bronco.

 

Couple more data points for comparison...dang the Everest looks familiar, doesn't it? We're getting the 2010 Explorer back, maybe with a solid rear axle.... Note that the 2001 Explorer was based on the Ranger of the day.

Everest specs: 192.59" Long, 73.22" Wide, 112.20" Wheelbase, 4938lbs
Explorer 2017: 198.3" Long, 78.9" Wide, 112.8" Wheelbase, 4890lbs (4WD)
Explorer 2001: 190.7” Long, 70.2” Wide, 111.6” Wheelbase, 4113 lbs (4x4, solid rear axle)
Explorer 2002: 189.5” Long, 72.1” Wide, 113.7” Wheelbase, 4374 lbs (4x4 IRS)
Explorer 2010: 193.4” Long, 73.7” Wide, 113.7” Wheelbase, 4716 lbs (4x4)

 

I don't have a horse in this race but some thoughts none the less...

There have been several Bronco concept vehicles proposed over the years since it was discontinued, some of them were from Ford and some were independent artist creations. Of those the two versions below or something similar are the most likely to be a hit IMO..

The most obvious thing with both of these is that they are 2-door and they have design queues that harken back to the first gen. Now.. given current fleet fuel consumption targets and consumer buying trends a 2-door SUV doesn't make a lot of sense but historically the Bronco has never been anything but a 2-door so I don't see a 4-door selling to the traditional Bronco buyer... if you want that there are already a ton of vehicles on the market to select from. And I don't see soccer moms paying extra for a 4-door SUV that has worse on-road ride and handling(because of solid axles) than all the other SUVs on the market. IMO if Ford brings over the Everest and simply puts a grill in it that says Bronco it will be a hugh failure just like the new Dodge Charger, if the grill says Explorer however that would be fine. The revamped Challenger is a hit just like the 5th gen Mustang and Camaro were because they use the same 2-door body style as the originals and have a lot of styling cues that tie back to the muscle car era. This is what the customers in this market segment want, nobody wants a 4-door mustang despite the fact this would work much better from a corporate standpoint and target a wider consumer base, the problem is it would totally alienate the core enthusiast base at the same time. So yeah, I put the Bronco in the same consumer category as these 2-door muscle cars, I got no problem with Ford using the Everest platform to build it and they can even make a 4-door version of it but I think they should call it something else.. like Explorer for example.

 

SEVENTY PERCENT of current Jeep Wranglers sold in the US have FOUR DOORS. You need to become accustomed to the 21st century, Conan.

In my world (as in yours), Jeeps have 2 doors. In my world, pickup trucks have 2 doors and a single bench seat. How many regular cab pickups are sold as a percentage? Which body styles have the larger profit margin? Which Jeep model is the bigger cash cow? They sold 200k Wranglers in the US in 2016, and 50k in Canada and elsewhere. That's a quarter million of them, and 175k of those have 4 doors.

The reality is that Jeeps are bought by most owners to "wear" to the mall and high school parking lots. And they wear bumper stickers that say "it's a Jeep thing, you wouldn't understand"...LOL Buyers buy them for image, not for capability. Same people will buy the Bronco.

When Ford brought out the Raptor as a Supercab only, the world screamed for a crew cab version. And got it. Nobody is gonna go off roading in their new $40-50k Bronco. Just like Corvettes are not driven at 180 mph. People do not buy niche performance vehicles to *use* in that niche. How many Raptors are racing in the desert compared to being parked in Home Depot lots?

Fuel economy standards as I understand them will be based on the footprint of a vehicle so a longer and wider vehicle will be easier with which to meet fuel economy standards also.

Sorry, just a bit of reality for ya. Doubt there will be a 2 door Bronco. Ford is not looking to compete with the 60k 2-door Wranglers sold in the US; they are looking to penetrate the 140k Wrangler 4-door market...that is where more money is earned, both on volume and on margin.

My prediction is that it will be a restyled 4 door Everest, maybe given a plastic "tough vehicle" suit like the H2/H3 Hummers, and likely with a removable roof panel as a gimmick for teenybopper girls and old guys like me who don't want to get a Harley but like the idea of the open air vibe when going to REI.

George

 

Oh I hear you George but a guy can dream cant he? I agree a 4-door Bronco on any platform would outsell a 2dr version by 4-1 or more but I still think they need to have the classic 2dr truck as an option to have any credibility with the namesake.

 

My last "tough" off road vehicle was a 1980 FJ40 Land Crusher....that was a brutal thing. I got it off road a bit, but it made absolutely no sense as a daily driver. And a 2 door Wrangler with its short wheelbase is pretty miserable and choppy--plus in Detroit (where I sometimes park for events or meetings) the doors get stolen off Jeeps a lot.

My current DD is a 2009 Subaru Forester with a stick...relatively crude and utilitarian, and I would really like Ford to make me a successor vehicle. I come from Detroit UAW stock. The Edge just ain't tough enough and I frankly like truck-like vehicles.

So if the new Bronco is a good alternative to a 4Runner, say, that would work fine for me. I really like to buy American but I tried to buy an Escape in 2008 and all they offered with a stick was 2WD--and there was only one Escape with a stick east of the Mississippi...so I bought the Forester and it's been pretty decent.

The new Bronco may be introduced right around the time I want to lose the Subaru (actually I'm currently itching for a new DD out of boredom). The Forester has 117k miles on it and my son wants it, so if something strikes my fancy, I could find a good excuse to buy. Edge Sport is kind of cool and hot-roddy but I want tougher, more ground clearance. Grand Cherokee is nice but pricey and I don't want 2 Chrysler vehicles. So I'm waiting for the Bronco, sort of. And I'd want 4 doors because we have friends we take places with us...plus the rear doors make sense for traveling because they give my wife and me "cargo zones"...

George

 

Yes likely big seller would be a 4 door but would be nice to have the 2 door option for those who want it. Still offer the extended cab raptor so maybe the only the hopefully more offroad variant would have the option.

 

I'll poke holes in this.

A LOT of people buy Jeeps for image. But that's because they have the "tough" image. Imitation is the fondest form of flattery. The reason that it exists, is because Jeeps are used offroad. There is an enormous following. There's a "negative" point to the posers, but, look at the plus side; if Ford uses this correctly, releases the vehicle that every enthusiast envisions and pushes the offroad image, the Jeep like culture will immerge and stay. That drives sales from posers, keeping the prices in check. The more people demand for that image, the more aftermarket companies will pop up supporting this. People like the ability to modify and personalize their vehicles. Plus, this keeps mint condition, not abused vehicles around for enthusiasts to ****** up later. Which is the prequel to my next point...

Who buys a 60k$ Jeep to wheel? Well... a lot. There is a huge amount of people that buy them off of the lot and drop them off at shops so that they can run 40" tires properly. A friend of mine had 1500 km's on his Jeep when we went on an offroading weekend. We ran rock trails all weekend. And he wasn't the only one there in that situation.

The reason that the FJ Cruiser fizzled is because Toyota rode their heritage and nameplate on a watered down platform.... it sorta worked, but it got boring.

Lastly, I DD a Jeep Wrangler. A 2 door Rubicon with a 6 speed manual. It has power windows, locks, cruise, steering wheel audio controls, comfortable suspension and yet I can take the top and doors off and wheel it pretty hard plus drive it home. Yes, I don't have kids so the lack of back seat space isn't a big deal, but, I still use it. It goes for groceries, I wax it...

The Jeep is more than a vehicle, it's a hobby. If Ford can create that kind of following, they will have a vehicle in every segment that dominates.

 

Good discussion, 2Door.

But people who buy a 60k vehicle on credit, then lift and raise it, and take it off-roading have to be very, very few in number. I don't think State Farm covers off-roading (or racing) accidents unless you buy some real pricey special coverage. If someone is rich enough to buy with cash, more power to 'em. I've gone as far as autocrossing and drag racing my DD cars in my many years of driving.

I don't think the market is *that* big for real serious off road machines that are used off road.

Seems like every sports car enthusiast wants a 2 seat sports car at a good price, but the Subaru/Toyota joint venture car is a huge marketing flop because the market is owned by the Miata and on the higher end, the Vette/Porsche people. If Ford does a great job on the Bronco, I see it maybe cannibalizing Jeep sales a bit, but I doubt that it will create a half million new off road enthusiasts.

I have driven many compromise vehicles as DD's, ranging from 2 seat English sports cars, to a real FJ40, to full size vans, to modified muscle cars (in the 1970's). I knew people back then who bought 426 Hemi Mopars and the like for DD's... (I owned a couple 426 Hemi cars and Vettes but had the wisdom to have beater DD's at the same time.) And as with your Jeep, these cars were hobby cars for me. (Well, not the full size vans, which were bicycling/music support vehicles--basically facilitating my hobbies as opposed to *being* the hobby.)

I kind of got tired of driving hobby vehicles, though. My Subaru Forester will take me on any campground trails I need to cover and can do fire road type stuff and Michigan snow just fine. No deep mud or rock crawling. It's also got AC, power locks, and a stick. If the Bronco ends up hitting the right spot in my esthetic, I might buy one. But for any serious off roading I want to do, I'll hike trails or ride them on a mountain bike.

Take care,
George

 

All excellent points, George.

I agree with you the ones that want to take their brand new vehicle, throw substantially more money at it, then use it to it's full capacity are very few and far between. There are speciality shops all around the country that specialize in it, though. Rebel Offroad, for example, in California, has actually developed their own, proprietary bolt in suspension for the Jeep JK Wrangler, allowing the user to run coilover shocks. Just the kit alone is around 4k... plus installation and such. Naturally, that is going to be the top 1% of the curve, the people who have high amounts of disposable income and are looking for the new "thing".

I guess my point was that if Ford can develop the Bronco to be a no-compromise kind of platform such as the Jeep, they'll have a serious shot. Here's what I mean; The modern Wrangler is very, very much an enthusiasts vehicle. BUT, it's mostly sold to people who want that "feel". The top off, true 4wd, "raw" feel. I'm in the small percentile that uses theirs for offroad, so I'm irrelevant to the bean counters. EXCEPT, people that use their Jeeps like me, and who modify them for offroad, like me, are what keeps the Wrangler as an enthusiasts vehicle. I don't know how many times I've been stopped while getting gas and said "geez man, I like it. I've been thinking about a lift for mine..." then the questions. And companies make it SO easy to get the "look".

IF Ford sets their expectations with the new Bronco to sell an enthusiast vehicle, like they did with the Raptor and the Shelby, they have a serious shot at taking some of the market away from Jeep. Why? Cause Jeep mostly sucks at what they do. In 2007, the Wrangler came with an engine that made a little over 200 hp, and was source from the Iaccoca era of Chrysler. They changed that in '12, to an engine with 265 hp at the crank....Ford could EASILY put a 350 hp engine in the Bronco and be ahead. My Jeep is an '11. It has a bad clockspring. My friends Jeep is a '13. It had a bad clock spring. My Jeeps electronic swaybar? Failed. Unusable. Also, due to some design flaws, I welded a pretty serious truss on my Dana 44 housing. And I'll end up replacing MOST of the brackets holding my suspension together in the front. The Jeep Wrangler has been uncontested so long, that they aren't doing anything interesting. If Ford can put out that Bronco, and hypothetically, it came with solid axles, a good design that was functional offroad and they don't over complicate everything, companies will be jumping all over it. SEMA will be full of them.

What that will do is spark the interest of the 1%. The guys with large amounts of disposable income, that want the best, and they will make them the best. In turn, fueling the aftermarket. Then, it'll get the average Joe's interested, because they want the image. We get it all the time in the Jeep world... guys go buy a Jeep, throw bumpers, a little bit of suspension (which makes it easy to run 35's) and boom, they think they have a weapon. That's ok. Every dollar they spend goes back into the offroad industry, the industry I draw from when I need something serious.

Jeeps are very mod friendly because they are, by new vehicle standards, simple.

I guess what I mean is no, the market isn't that big for serious offroad rigs. But never underestimate the potential of the poser. Take the Raptor as an example... they overbuilt the hell out of that thing, and most of them are used as cool commuters. But every Raptor owner will say "it could handle jumps".

But yes, I agree, driving your hobby vehicle can be a pain. A concession. In summer trim, my Jeep is kinda brutal. I have 36" bias ply offroad tires on it during those months. Awesome offroad, kinda crummy on. The soft top is a pain when it's cold, and you need into the back (the window shrinks). Right now, my Jeep is in winter mode... hardtop, 315/70r17 radial all terrain tires and it doesn't get wheeled a lot. It's great! When I swapped it all over, it was like a new Jeep. Mostly cause I've been so used to misery I guess. I use it when it's stormy out so I can see over the snow banks and the 4wd makes even the worst weather a non-issue. Fuel economy sucks though... so I have a car to drive most of the time.

Logically, the market doesn't want another 2 door, manual, solid axled SUV. But a huge part of the potential market wants to think they want that image. Especially as of late, the "golden era", revitalized classic designs are doing well. The new Mustang is like a 68 Mustang... without having all of the issues of a 68 Mustang. But the "look" is right. It sparks an emotion, or a memory with people. Right now, Early Bronco's are selling for an absolute FORTUNE... because they have transitioned from utilitarian compact SUV's to an enormous enthusiast nameplate. If Ford can sell and market this as an enthusiast, back to basics, hardcore SUV, they'll have a winner.

Ford doesn't have to cannibalize the Jeep's sales, all they have to do is reintroduce the Bronco, true to form, and let the dormant Bronco enthusiasts storm the doors. Because until now, the closest thing you can get under the Ford name is a reg cab short box F150, which is hardly close.

It will certainly be an interesting few months, waiting to see what is released about it.

But, I do agree, they probably won't come with solid axles.... but it's fun to imagine.

 

I can see why Bronco fans would be sad to see the Bronco revived as a 4 door SUV, and not as serious an off-roader as it was at one time. But everyone's forgetting that both the Bronco and Wrangler (CJ series) were only marketed to off-roaders by the early '80s, they were strictly small work trucks (with light trail use) for decades before that. If the Bronco becomes what it looks like it will, it should be a small, very off-road capable (as far as OEM goes) SUV. How is that any worse than a factory first gen Bronco?

The only serious off-road Broncos I've seen are heavily modded; has it ever been as off-road capable as modern AWD SUV straight off the dealer lot? The Bronco has been, at a maximum, just about exactly as capable as a shortened F150. The more iconic 1st gen was far wimpier, as is only known as a tough truck because of the guys who modded them.

My point is: No matter what the next Bronco ends up being, the fact that Ford says it will be specifically off-road capable speaks volumes, as none other generation has been before. I'm sure that if the hardcore Bronco fans don't accept it, it will find its own enthusiast group.

P.S: I don't see how the Everest would be such a horrible base design for the Bronco. It sure looks capable to me!

 

^^^ I would buy that.

Looks very much like a modern incarnation of the old body-on-frame Explorer. A bit smaller than the bloated later models, and it looks quite capable.

 

If I had to buy a modern SUV, that would be it. I could see if it were just re-skinned to look a little more retro or truck-like, it would make a perfect Bronco. You also couldn't forget a 2.3/2.7 EB or 3.0 diesel!

 

Thanks again for the good discussion. There is certainly a place for "halo" cars like the Viper and Ford GT40 to bring customers into the dealership where they buy something more practical.

But for the Bronco to make sense, Ford will need to sell a good number of Ranger/Bronco vehicles and mark them up enough to justify building them in the US. As a Detroiter, I have owned vehicles that came out of that Wayne Michigan plant. They can't make enough money building Focuses there.

As per one of my posts above, the Everest is so much like the pre-2011 Explorer in every dimension that it's almost funny. I LIKED the pre-11 Explorer and updating that with more modern engines would have kept me interested in it. The Expedition is basically the 1997 model with new body panels and drivetrains, and it would have been cool if Ford had kept an "Explorer Classic" based on the 2002 IRS Explorer body/frame. But sales were tanking and the new Taurus-based Explorer is doing much better sales volume.

Jeep has the off-road "vibe" and reputation, and they even sell a "Trail Rated" version of the new Cherokee (presumably the qualification is that they have driven it over the Rubicon trail)--which is based on a front wheel drive FIAT chassis. I think every Wrangler is Trail Rated, and most models of the Grand Cherokee are also available with that badge. That is their formula for selling to posers (and yes, part of me is a poser also)....I find the Grand Cherokee appealing but pricey. I would feel good buying one because the factory is 5 miles from my house and I would be supporting my neighbors who build them.

I just noticed that GMC is building their new down-sized Acadia with an "off road" package of some sort but it looks like badges instead of any kind of mechanical equipment.

The current Edge and Explorer are too car-like to do "trail rated/off-road" packages on...and hopefully the new Bronco will fill that market niche that won't cannibalize their existing sales of Edges and Explorers. It's gonna be a lot more like a 4Runner than a Wrangler, though. Not a bad thing--I like the 4Runner (and liked the Nissan XTerra, which also got cancelled due to lack of interest).

George

 

The Everest surely does look quite capable but I wouldn't buy it. It looks like a typical Hyundai and anything else that Ford builds. The styling isn't inspiring to me.