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Lizard Skin Insulation

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Old 09-05-2016, 09:06 AM
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Post Lizard Skin Insulation

Didn't find any thing in the search so I will post what I have found.
Says when the insulation one is used it can help bring down the temp up to 30%. It is not a cheap product and then having to buy the gun is like $80. It is some thick stuff looking at the video so it would take a large nozzle spray gun and I am thinking at least one with a 2.0 nozzle or larger. The gun does come with extras like a mixing paddle and a extra screw on nozzle for shooting in recessed/hidden areas.


You shoot it once and then shoot it again and you are after the thickness of at least a dime. Its says .040-.060. You just have to figure your sq footage. Doing a pickup would not cost as much but we have a panel and that will take a lot of it. Not advisable to try and roll or brush it on except maybe for a very small area.


They also have the sound deadening one that you apply first and the insulation one that has the ceramic in it.


Here is a link to all the info on it.
FAQ - LizardSkin Car Insulation Answers | LizardSkin


Summit has a great video with someone that you may know doing the inside of his big box van. And a video of what comes with the gun kit.
https://www.summitracing.com/search/...ands-_-keyword


Here is some review info from guys + some tell you how to make your own and what gun to use and come out saving a bunch of money.
lizard skin sound/ heat control- any good? | The H.A.M.B.


The stuff is NOT a rust encapsulating product so I would recommend you use what you like on the areas that have the surface rust that you can't really get off. There is info on prepping that will help you a lot in the first link I posted.
 
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Old 09-05-2016, 10:12 AM
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This is what I have found so for on the ceramic spears to mix your own.
https://www.amazon.com/Insuladd-Insu.../dp/B005MS98C6




Ceramic insulating paint additive Price List



Time for me to go do something and get off this dag computer.


Hope all of you have a great Labor Day
 
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Old 09-05-2016, 10:33 AM
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My humble opinions and observations (for whatever they're worth):
Spray-on bedliners are good for truck bed protection. Beyond that they, and products with microspheres, etc., do little more than reduce sound transmission. Mostly a reduction of ringing (similar to 'dinging' a driveshaft, for example) or transfer of ambient sound from one side of sheet metal to the other (think road noise being slightly more muted - still there but not quite as loud.) As far as a 30% heat reduction look at it this way - a typical, properly functioning auto a/c system is considered to be functioning properly when it produces a 30 - 35 degree heat reduction from outside ambient temperatures. So, on a 100 degree day a 30% reduction would equal a 30 degree reduction. At that rate who would need a/c? If it worked that well no auto manufacturer would bother installing a/c in any vehicle.

I work mostly on fire engines and trucks these days and we normally replace under-cab insulation on 3-4 apparatus each year. We've tried a number of different products and applications such as just replacing the mylar covered acoustic foam with fatmat, fatmat with the acoustic foam, etc. (not singling out fatmat, just using it as a generic name for foil backed rubber/tar/butyl/goop) While none of these are microspheres covered with goop I wouldn't expect that to be some sort of miracle product otherwise NASA would have coated the space shuttles with them. What we have found is that the metal portions of the cab that are exposed to heat and are coated with a bedliner type product do reduce the heat to where you can easily tell a difference from the engine side to the interior side but we can't use that as the only insulation. It does reduce mid and higher range noise transmission somewhat. Fatmat type products also do about the same, maybe a tad better due to their thicker application, but still inadequate for heat and sound transmission into the cabs. Granted, fire apparatus with large diesel engines mostly enclosed by the cab (keeps pumps and plumbing from freezing in sub-freezing temps) generate a lot more noise and heat than our little trucks, the products and applications would just require more/less of the same.

With all of this in consideration, my recommendations for our trucks is this: cab roofs require a product that will remain adhered at temps ~160 degrees - check with supplier to make certain it won't fall on your head on a hot day. Fatmat (Dynamat, et al) type covering on all covered interior surfaces for noise and thermal reduction, patches of the same on large flat surfaces if only after noise reduction (panel 'ringing' reduction - think: placing yourhand on the ringing driveshaft) Two or three strips inside the doors, placed on the inside of the outer skin will reduce door 'ringing'. Top that with 3/8" - 1/2" of jute padding and then interior trim, mat, carpet, etc. (rear cab wall, carpet, kick panels) (inside the doors I typically use thin, self-adhesive, foil-backed insulation from Home Depot or Lowe's) Add a thin layer of rubberized asphalt mat between jute padding and trim for maximum insulation (similar to what was original firewall insulation behind dashboard.) Increasing thicknesses/layers beyond this will only return fractionally better results yet add significant weight. Audiophiles attempting reflection/absorption changes will have vastly different issues/requirements.
 
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Old 09-05-2016, 05:17 PM
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Nothing that you have said had anything to do with the use of the ceramic beads. You can use the glass beads for sound and then go over it with the ceramic if sound is a concern but in our case heat is what most of us are after and that what the use of the ceramic is for.


I do ceramic coating on exhaust systems so I am well aware of it benefits beside looks in a lot of cases but it is applied at under 2 mils and that is all you can do or it will crack.


What my friend and I will do after reading all the info I have posted and from what other guys have said about it use then we will go that route. Making the product yourself will save a bunch and the question I am going to ask the company that makes the Lizard Skin just how thick can you apply it without having any problems like fall down. Once we do coat the truck then I will use my pro IR gun to take readings of it with the truck setting in direct sunlight and go from there.


With us working on a panel tk and there being a lot or overhead metal then we will add extra insulation to at least the top and maybe the sides if we see a need. Once all is done then the interior will be installed.


Bed liner has a use but for sure not to cut down on heat or at least very much of it. That is not what it is made for.


There are companies that also make mating using ceramic fibers and for use on a lot of thing and can also be bought in lots of thicknesses. Yep it can be expensive. I have had one company send me to samples of what they make so I could test them and for use to help on oil temps on the older Harleys and for guys using the horse shoe oil tanks. Might work fine but one of them can't get wet but one can.


I am thinking you are anyone else involved with what you are doing on the fire trucks need to look at better options than what you have been using. Worth looking into I would say unless you guys are just set in your ways and if so then stick with it.
 
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Old 09-05-2016, 05:42 PM
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46Duke if you haven't done so already do a search for DIY lizardskin. There are a lot of people using the ceramic sphere's mixed in regular latex house paint that are having good results. And that is a whole lot cheaper then buying the actual Lizardskin product. I can't help much on how thick you can apply it. I think you are going to have to experiment a little on that to find the best results. You already know this but the ceramic sphere's are more for heat reduction then noise reduction. But any kind of heavier coating is going to help reduce the tin can sound you get in the old truck cabs/panel bodies.

I'm buying the Lizard skin application gun/kit. A regular paint gun isn't going to spray stuff this thick very well.

I'm personally going to coat the inside of my cab with POR-15 then a bunch of layers of DIY roll on/spray on Durabak bedliner ( same as herculiner just has color options ). And I'm going to mix in the Hytech Sales ceramic sphere's in the first 2 or 3 coats of bedliner. Then another 2 or 3 coats without the sphere's. But I'm building a work truck/driver. I'm not going to have any carpet or interior trim panels. The bedliner will let me hose out my cab when I get a bunch of mud/dirt in it. But as just an insulator the bedliner wouldn't make a whole lot of financial sense.

But if you plan on doing a full upholstery I personally would seal/paint your interior with some kind of good paint to protect it. Then if you want to save some $$ use the house paint with the ceramic sphere's ( the Hytech Sales are better quality then a lot of the cheaper stuff ) . But I would probably go with some kind of sound damper too, like Dynamat, Boom mat, etc. And then the upholstery.

Keep us posted on your results. It's cool to see what every is using on their trucks.
 
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Old 09-05-2016, 07:11 PM
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The Lizardskin gun kit is worth the $$$...it gives you the capability of spraying the product out of a suction feed quart cup or through a hose from a large bucket. I use my own mix for all the projects I work on. Buy a gallon of the best exterior grade latex paint and mix in as much ceramic balloons/spheres as it will hold. Mix it in at least a 2 gallon bucket as that is how much DIY-LS you will have when done. The consistency of the mix is about that of cake batter. It is important that the LS is applied in coats and allowed to dry for awhile between coats. I have sprayed it on too thick and it did sag and when applied too thick on a horizontal surface (where sagging is not possible) I did get some blisters. The LS dried on the surface but stayed wet underneath until it expanded and contracted to the point where it blistered. Two coats are all that is needed to give you a 40% thermal barrier. Here are a few pics of projects I have done...
 
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Old 09-05-2016, 07:18 PM
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Here is a pic of a 56 firewall where the LS was applied too heavy and there were sags. Coverage and adhesion were fine and since this will all be covered no further corrective action was required.
 
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Old 09-05-2016, 08:08 PM
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Duke, I sincerely hope whatever you decide to use works wonders for you. My post was only offering what we have found to be effective. The thing to remember is that basically insulation is placing an air space between you and the heat source. That air space can be created by pockets in foam, spaces in layers of fiberglass or jute, etc. or through the introduction of microspheres suspended in a coating. It doesn't matter what the spheres are made of, glass, ceramic or mosquito farts, they just add an air space. For my money and from my experience, the more air space the better. Again, I hope whatever you decide on works well and makes you happy.
 
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Old 09-05-2016, 09:50 PM
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I thought Lizard Skin was expensive, but I just bought a couple of quarts of 3M Body Shultz to spray the underside of the cab. It was $40 per quart, Lizard Skin is around $150 for a 2 gallon jug, so actually cheaper in the long run.
I read several articles of people making their own LizardSkin using Latex paint and some ceramic spheres. I have never seen any type of latex paint that was as thick as the stuff in the LizardSkin bucket. It was hard to believe one could spray it as you almost have to use a putty knife to fill the spray cup, but sprayed good and looks pretty good.

I think it falls under you pay for what you get.

Ernie
 
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Old 09-05-2016, 10:05 PM
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Originally Posted by EFranzen View Post
I read several articles of people making their own LizardSkin using Latex paint and some ceramic spheres. I have never seen any type of latex paint that was as thick as the stuff in the LizardSkin bucket. It was hard to believe one could spray it as you almost have to use a putty knife to fill the spray cup, but sprayed good and looks pretty good.

I think it falls under you pay for what you get.

Ernie
Latex paint gets pretty thick you mix the ceramic sphere's into it.
 
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Old 09-06-2016, 08:19 AM
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Originally Posted by CBeav View Post
Duke, I sincerely hope whatever you decide to use works wonders for you. My post was only offering what we have found to be effective. The thing to remember is that basically insulation is placing an air space between you and the heat source. That air space can be created by pockets in foam, spaces in layers of fiberglass or jute, etc. or through the introduction of microspheres suspended in a coating. It doesn't matter what the spheres are made of, glass, ceramic or mosquito farts, they just add an air space. For my money and from my experience, the more air space the better. Again, I hope whatever you decide on works well and makes you happy.

What makes forums so great is posting info one has found and then getting feedback on it and if all goes well then you get lots of helpful info just like what has been posted here already by other members.


Air space is a key when insulating homes and ovens and freezers and if you pack it to tight like trying to put 6" insulation into a 2x4 wall then you have screwed up your airspace. We help guys all the time building their own ovens to bake powder coating in and that is what I do for a living from 2007.


I would say the best insulation on the market would be the spray on foam one but we do not have 4 to 6" of wall space to get it thick enough to get a good R factor. The better insulation that we can buy is very thin Like Dynamat They do charge a lot when it comes down to the pre-cut one but might not be that bad for a normal truck but for a panel then you are looking at a grand easy. But less if you want to cut it yourself. They also have a product call DynaLiner that can be used over the Dynamat for even more sound and added insulation. I have looked into all of those types and that was what we were going to use. What we may do is to do the spray on one bought or made and follow instructions and then maybe add something like the DynaLiner to the top and sides on our panel project. All comes under experimenting and hope you win with the best saving out of pocket.


With me having an IR gun so I can take temperature readings then testing will be fairly easy as long as our temps or at least in the high 80's and 90's. If it is lower then we will not be able to do a real good test unless we pot a heater inside the truck and then watched it close and took an outside reading of the body.


For those that do not know or never used an IR gun then what you have to remember they do not take a very good reading of any thing that is shinny like the insulation with the expose foil. To get a reading on it then you need to spray it with a flat or semi gloss black or even a white paint. They are not super expensive but they do come in higher price models and the more they cost then the better they are and also how far away one can take a good reading. They can also be used to tune a motor by taking a reading on your header while adjusting timing and carb tuning. So if can be a handy item for your tool box. Harbor Freight has them along with Lowe's and Home Depot.


Non-Contact Infrared Thermometer With Laser Targeting


Have a great one guys and thanks for all the feedback and hope there is more to come. In my first post and the last link that takes you to the H.A.M.B Jalopy forum is where I had read about making your own spray on one.
 
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Old 09-06-2016, 08:44 AM
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Originally Posted by 46duke View Post
Have a great one guys and thanks for all the feedback and hope there is more to come. In my first post and the last link that takes you to the H.A.M.B Jalopy forum is where I had read about making your own spray on one.
I am the same Charlieled on the HAMB as on this forum, I forgot about posting all that info years ago on the HAMB. As an added point, the ceramic micro spheres that I use have a 10:1 ratio of internal air space to wall thickness which maximizes their insulation effectiveness while preserving the integrity of the sphere. In the process of mixing, stirring, and spraying these spheres can take a beating so it's important that they are tough enough to survive.
Duke, being that you are in the industry, maybe you could discuss the differences between the ways that heat is transferred and how each is relevant in a truck/car.
 
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Old 09-06-2016, 09:59 AM
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My 56 Panel has spray in foam applied by the PO. REALLY knocks down the echo in the back. Haven't got far enough on it to figure out what I'm going to do with the cab portion yet.


Spray in foam.
 
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Old 09-06-2016, 10:15 AM
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Originally Posted by CharlieLed View Post
Duke, being that you are in the industry, maybe you could discuss the differences between the ways that heat is transferred and how each is relevant in a truck/car.
I would be glad to try and give some info on what you are asking as soon as I figure out what areas you are asking about? There are a lot of things that can be done that can help with heat transfer that we might could do to help us out but can you give more info on the areas you may be asking about?

The biggest key is how some one wants the area that can be seen like when the hood is up and how they want it to look. Looking factory and a nice paint job then all has to be done inside and if not showing a show car look under them then lost of things can be used there but if you are after the show car look then all has to be done inside.

Some of the links posted on the H.A.M.B are no longer good and I had to search for info on the spheres. Who are you buying from now if I may ask?
Thanks
 
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Old 09-06-2016, 12:57 PM
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I think what Charlie is asking for is information on convection, conduction and radiation heat tranfer and how we can beat it in our trucks. He brought this up because you proclaimed to have expertise in the area. Everybody wants to keep heat and sound either in or out of our trucks. Under the hood is not what he was referring to, I believe.
 

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