Need Alignment help/advice
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Senior User
Joined: Apr 2016
Posts: 197
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From: Atlanta
Need Alignment help/advice
I recently had both upper and lower ball joints replaced (at 61k!), and the shop has not been able to align it properly after completion. The van consistently drifts left (into oncoming traffic!) if you let go of the wheel. This problem did not exist before the ball joint replacement.
They are saying that the van is aligned to spec, and that the problem must be the tires. I doubt the tires are the issue, as it is a brand new set of Michelin XLT's which are quality tires and with which I have never had an issue in over 15+ (maybe as many as 20?) years of purchases and hundreds of thousands of miles of driving (on other vehicles). However, I'm going to switch the tires over the weekend to test their premise... I'm not anticipating any change in travel direction.
So my questions are this:
1. I can visually see positive camber in the tires when at rest. Is this correct/normal for the E350? (I'm used to having slight negative camber on other cars)
2. Are there any other components that would prevent proper alignment or a pull to one side or the other?
I'm leaving for a 4000+ mile trip and need to get this corrected before leaving. Any advice is appreciated!
They are saying that the van is aligned to spec, and that the problem must be the tires. I doubt the tires are the issue, as it is a brand new set of Michelin XLT's which are quality tires and with which I have never had an issue in over 15+ (maybe as many as 20?) years of purchases and hundreds of thousands of miles of driving (on other vehicles). However, I'm going to switch the tires over the weekend to test their premise... I'm not anticipating any change in travel direction.
So my questions are this:
1. I can visually see positive camber in the tires when at rest. Is this correct/normal for the E350? (I'm used to having slight negative camber on other cars)
2. Are there any other components that would prevent proper alignment or a pull to one side or the other?
I'm leaving for a 4000+ mile trip and need to get this corrected before leaving. Any advice is appreciated!
Posting Guru
Joined: Apr 2014
Posts: 2,196
Likes: 5
From: N Ca.
swap the tires side to side and see if it pulls the other way
been there, done that....even with michelins
If I recollect, correctly, it should be about 1/2 degree positive camber
Do you have a electronic level ?
been there, done that....even with michelins
If I recollect, correctly, it should be about 1/2 degree positive camber
Do you have a electronic level ?
Fleet Owner
Joined: Aug 2010
Posts: 21,253
Likes: 1,656
From: Reynoldsburg, Ohio
Visually and typically camber appears to be negative on a normally loaded or empty E-Series.
My latest alignment print-out shows just under 0.5* positive--if your shop shows or claims the same spec that should be close enough. Ask for a print out if their equipment has that capability.
I'm assuming you're traveling the same roads now as before? Not suddenly using roads with higher crowns.
Air pressure equal all around? FWIW I run 70 PSI in all four constantly, E250 loaded to 7,800# as a daily driver on Michelin LTX 245/75-R16's.
Definitely swap tires left-to-right, possibly front-to-rear instead. Also check calipers and the slide pins along with unusual pad wear---could be something needs attention in that area.
If the ball joints were installed properly and the alignment actually performed there shouldn't be any issues with that process. Mine were done without initial benefit of an alignment, simply marked the adjusting sleeves in the spindles to maintain the then-current caster/camber settings. Even at that there were no noticeable handling problems at all. (A full alignment with print out was done a few weeks later when the new Michelin's were installed.)
HTH
My latest alignment print-out shows just under 0.5* positive--if your shop shows or claims the same spec that should be close enough. Ask for a print out if their equipment has that capability.
I'm assuming you're traveling the same roads now as before? Not suddenly using roads with higher crowns.
Air pressure equal all around? FWIW I run 70 PSI in all four constantly, E250 loaded to 7,800# as a daily driver on Michelin LTX 245/75-R16's.
Definitely swap tires left-to-right, possibly front-to-rear instead. Also check calipers and the slide pins along with unusual pad wear---could be something needs attention in that area.
If the ball joints were installed properly and the alignment actually performed there shouldn't be any issues with that process. Mine were done without initial benefit of an alignment, simply marked the adjusting sleeves in the spindles to maintain the then-current caster/camber settings. Even at that there were no noticeable handling problems at all. (A full alignment with print out was done a few weeks later when the new Michelin's were installed.)
HTH
Thread Starter
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Senior User
Joined: Apr 2016
Posts: 197
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From: Atlanta
To answer the questions:
I do not have an electronic level. I was thinking of using a plumb bob and manual calculation to estimate positive camber degrees. If I can easily see positive camber, I'm thinking that it is outside of the 0.5deg spec.
Same roads, but van is pulling left (climbing the road crown). It's obvious.
Air pressure is 60 front and 80 rear. This is with a high quality dial gauge.
Pads were replaced at the same time.
I'll swap sides and see what happens...
I do not have an electronic level. I was thinking of using a plumb bob and manual calculation to estimate positive camber degrees. If I can easily see positive camber, I'm thinking that it is outside of the 0.5deg spec.
Same roads, but van is pulling left (climbing the road crown). It's obvious.
Air pressure is 60 front and 80 rear. This is with a high quality dial gauge.
Pads were replaced at the same time.
I'll swap sides and see what happens...
Cargo Master
Joined: Apr 2013
Posts: 3,087
Likes: 24
From: Central Florida
Total package
Wheel alignment is a total package deal- air pressures, tire sizes, suspension and springs, and alignment angles.
Cover the basics: set the tires to factory spec and make sure they are all the same size tire.
Check ride heights and check all suspension components for wear.
Lastly, alignment angles have to be correct AND work together. You can have everything in spec and have a pull/drift. I had a similar situation with mine. Everything was perfect on paper but when I had an experienced alignment tech check it out: my issue was that the broad spec's were allowing the front tires to "teamwork" on a leftward drift.
The spec allows positive or negative camber and caster, and my front two were "in spec" but definitely working together on a drift.
Mine was corrected by adjusting the caster/camber on a wheel that was "good" on paper.
Cover the basics: set the tires to factory spec and make sure they are all the same size tire.
Check ride heights and check all suspension components for wear.
Lastly, alignment angles have to be correct AND work together. You can have everything in spec and have a pull/drift. I had a similar situation with mine. Everything was perfect on paper but when I had an experienced alignment tech check it out: my issue was that the broad spec's were allowing the front tires to "teamwork" on a leftward drift.
The spec allows positive or negative camber and caster, and my front two were "in spec" but definitely working together on a drift.
Mine was corrected by adjusting the caster/camber on a wheel that was "good" on paper.
Cargo Master
Joined: Apr 2013
Posts: 3,087
Likes: 24
From: Central Florida
And by tire size....
I also mean that you should check tread depth. If you have one nearly bald and another fairly new then it could be a good difference.
Differing brand names can vary in size also- even at the "same size" indicate on the sidewall. If you have two michelin LTX and two Firestone HT then pair each brand on one axle; not left or right.
Differing brand names can vary in size also- even at the "same size" indicate on the sidewall. If you have two michelin LTX and two Firestone HT then pair each brand on one axle; not left or right.
Elder User
Joined: Mar 2014
Posts: 906
Likes: 1
Teutonics, you could check the tire ID code to see if when the tires were made and if one may have come from older stock. The code gives week and year manufactured dates and gives you a better assurance that they are matched. When the tire companies do those performance commercials, they get a batch of tires with the same date codes and retest them until they get a perfect set. Yes, these are just production tires used to best advantage for advertising but the average buyer may not get that lucky.
Tire Tech Information - Determining the Age of a Tire
Also, if you put a passenger in the righthand seat, does it still drift? Perhaps the alignment could be redone with bodies in the seats?
jim
Tire Tech Information - Determining the Age of a Tire
Also, if you put a passenger in the righthand seat, does it still drift? Perhaps the alignment could be redone with bodies in the seats?
jim
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Posting Guru
Joined: Apr 2014
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Likes: 5
From: N Ca.
I recently had both upper and lower ball joints replaced (at 61k!), and the shop has not been able to align it properly after completion. The van consistently drifts left (into oncoming traffic!) if you let go of the wheel. This problem did not exist before the ball joint replacement.
They are saying that the van is aligned to spec, and that the problem must be the tires. I doubt the tires are the issue, as it is a brand new set of Michelin XLT's which are quality tires and with which I have never had an issue in over 15+ (maybe as many as 20?) years of purchases and hundreds of thousands of miles of driving (on other vehicles). However, I'm going to switch the tires over the weekend to test their premise... I'm not anticipating any change in travel direction.
They are saying that the van is aligned to spec, and that the problem must be the tires. I doubt the tires are the issue, as it is a brand new set of Michelin XLT's which are quality tires and with which I have never had an issue in over 15+ (maybe as many as 20?) years of purchases and hundreds of thousands of miles of driving (on other vehicles). However, I'm going to switch the tires over the weekend to test their premise... I'm not anticipating any change in travel direction.
I'd like to see the printout of the alignment and the circumference of the tires ( thinking stagger but I doubt it )
What happened?
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Cargo Master
Joined: Apr 2013
Posts: 3,087
Likes: 24
From: Central Florida
Vettex2
I agree fully with Vettex. If the only change was the ball joints then the issue isn't the tires (unless they got switched around to different positions after the ball join service).
I bet you need cast/camber adjustment due to the change change is ball join position.
I bet you need cast/camber adjustment due to the change change is ball join position.
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Senior User
Joined: Apr 2016
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From: Atlanta
Thanks all. Van is back in the shop as of tonight, will have more information probably tomorrow.
Tires are all brand new and matching (still have nubbies so tread depth is same all around) and were on before ball joints and alignment. I'll check the codes when I get it back, but I'm doubtful it will pull the opposite direction after swapping sides.
If anyone can recommend an alignment shop in Atlanta I'm assuming I'm going to have to take it somewhere else... And soon.
Tires are all brand new and matching (still have nubbies so tread depth is same all around) and were on before ball joints and alignment. I'll check the codes when I get it back, but I'm doubtful it will pull the opposite direction after swapping sides.
If anyone can recommend an alignment shop in Atlanta I'm assuming I'm going to have to take it somewhere else... And soon.
Cargo Master
Joined: Apr 2013
Posts: 3,087
Likes: 24
From: Central Florida
Tell them you want their best alignment guy (and/or Ford truck guy) to do the alignment. And give them a $10-20 cash tip. And tell them you want a before and after printout. And stay to watch and converse with the technician if possible.
And be sure to tell them ahead of time that this will be a "more difficult than usual" alignment. You don't want the technician throwing it up on the alignment rack at 4:45pm thinking he can just "set the toe and let her go". (If you literally use that phrase, they will know you mean business).
Also if they are any good at alignments they will ask what your driving habits are: lots of highway or none. (Many hours spent at highway speeds on a highway road crown will require different caster/camber than if you mostly stay on local roads below 50mph).
Most importantly; they must realize the thing I mentioned earlier; about how two "in spec" numbers can team up to create a pull. (For example: a half degree positive camber LF and a half degree negative camber RF will be within spec, but will definitely cause a pull to the left).
Share with us the printout!!
And be sure to tell them ahead of time that this will be a "more difficult than usual" alignment. You don't want the technician throwing it up on the alignment rack at 4:45pm thinking he can just "set the toe and let her go". (If you literally use that phrase, they will know you mean business).
Also if they are any good at alignments they will ask what your driving habits are: lots of highway or none. (Many hours spent at highway speeds on a highway road crown will require different caster/camber than if you mostly stay on local roads below 50mph).
Most importantly; they must realize the thing I mentioned earlier; about how two "in spec" numbers can team up to create a pull. (For example: a half degree positive camber LF and a half degree negative camber RF will be within spec, but will definitely cause a pull to the left).
Share with us the printout!!
Fleet Owner
Joined: Aug 2010
Posts: 21,253
Likes: 1,656
From: Reynoldsburg, Ohio
If not look for a shop specializing in large trucks; dump, tractor-trailer, buses etc etc. They tend to be less crooked and massively more competent than the chain stores or passenger car tire shops regardless their size or number of stores.
See if your shop of choice can/will provide a print out for your maintenance records---if you keep such things.
Good luck with this------hope it goes smoother.
Cargo Master
Joined: Apr 2013
Posts: 3,087
Likes: 24
From: Central Florida
And!
Be prepared for increased cost!!
$69.95 simply ain't going to cover it.
If they need to adjust the camber or caster it will require parts- I forget what they are called but they are about $30 per side, plus labor.
As much as this may hurt your wallet, they are THE requirement for aligning these ford vans.
$69.95 simply ain't going to cover it.
If they need to adjust the camber or caster it will require parts- I forget what they are called but they are about $30 per side, plus labor.
As much as this may hurt your wallet, they are THE requirement for aligning these ford vans.
Fleet Owner
Joined: Aug 2010
Posts: 21,253
Likes: 1,656
From: Reynoldsburg, Ohio
Alignment bushings are ONLY needed if the existing parts cannot compensate for any change required to meet specifications. The shop will determine this so its not an absolute certainty these bushings are necessary to replace.
Trust your shop once you've settled on one, typically the one most often repeated when talking to the big truck and bus owners.
Trust your shop once you've settled on one, typically the one most often repeated when talking to the big truck and bus owners.
Cargo Master
Joined: Apr 2013
Posts: 3,087
Likes: 24
From: Central Florida
Alignment bushings are ONLY needed if the existing parts cannot compensate for any change required to meet specifications. The shop will determine this so its not an absolute certainty these bushings are necessary to replace.
Trust your shop once you've settled on one, typically the one most often repeated when talking to the big truck and bus owners.
Trust your shop once you've settled on one, typically the one most often repeated when talking to the big truck and bus owners.