Little bit of history first. I was leaving work yesterday and the 1986 F150 "clicked" and the clock reset on the dash. I tried again and it started but had a rough and sluggish idle. everytime I put it into gear it would stall. Finally I got it in gear and moving and made it home. When I got home I noticed the lights were a little dim so I plugged up the battery charger over night.

This morning I unhooked the charger that said it was good and the truck started right up. But, the sluggish and rough idle was still there. It kept stalling and everytime I put it into reverse or drive it would bog down and stall.

I finally got it moving again and figured it was some bad gas or the weather and the carb needs to be adjusted. Drove to the stable to feed horses and it ran but I could feel the hesitation/skip while driving. When I parked it I left it idling rough till I was done. When I got back it to the truck it had stalled. It started right up and I was able to get going first try.

Got to work and parked it with a few chances of stalling while slowing down or "california rolling" on the back roads. I only live 15 mins from work on back roads luckily.

After work I got in and "click" and the clock reset. Waited about 30 seconds and tried again. "click" and every light and indicator went off. Opened the hood and checked battery terminals, cables and looked for anything out of the ordinary. Nothing. Called the Mrs and she came to get me.

Best news is that I'm already off work tomorrow and now I'm going to be spending time fixing the truck.

With this information does it help diagnose what might be wrong? My only ideas are:

1. Bad alternator
2. Battery? Even though it hasn't given me one issue and it's from 2013.
3. Short/draw on the battery?

I don't know and am asking for some assistance.

 

What I would do.
If cables are old I would replace them. And don't say "they look good" as you can not tell if bed or not. You could test resistance but old just replace.


If you don't replace undo them at the batt and clean cables & posts. Then do the other end of the cables. Don't forget the cable from solenoid to starter ends.


Then check the batt. volts fully charged should be 12.6 if not throw the charger on it.


Once they are 100% and the truck starts and runs put a volt meter on the batt. should read about 13.5-14.5 IIRC if not raise the RPM and check again. If still not then yes bad alt/reg and will need to be replaced.
If volts are ok at idle now turn on heater (AC if you have it) and head lights on high does it still read 13.5-14.5? Raise RPM what do you get?


Tell us what you find.
Dave ----

 

If you are just getting a click and nothing else is happening, get a meter or testlight and start poking around reading voltages WHILE SOMEONE IS HOLDING THE KEY OVER TO START.
Check the battery terminals first with the meter or testlight WHILE SOMEONE IS HOLDING THE KEY OVER TO START, you may have a intermittent bad battery. Putting a load on the system while you are taking readings is very important.

 

The battery, being from 2013 "may" not mean much depending on how long it sat on a shelf prior to install. Has the battery been discharged prior to this at any time ? My next try would be a load test on the alternator. As Fuzz mentioned, it's hard to tell if cables are decent, not knowing how much corrosion is lurking under that insulation. I've replaced cables and split the insulation on the old ones revealing the "green death" through-out the entire cable. But then again, I do live in the rust belt near the salt mines under Lake Erie.

 

You were right the last time, ha ha. Yes, replace.

Actually high current carrying circuits can't really be tested for resistance, practically speaking. Cables that carry 250 amps don't work that way. The math doesn't work.

The ohm resistance numbers are so tiny, the high amperage circuits have to be tested under load, for voltage drop is the only way.

Reason being, just a few hundredths of a single ohm resistance is enough to cut alternator output by 30% for example. Fricking amazing. Think about this the next time you hear somebody wants to swap in a high output alternator for $$.

They may simply need $20 worth of new cables to get all the electrons they need and paid for. I like to crack the alternator hardware now and then, or make sure it's grounded well against the block too. These high resistance connections especially in old rigs cannot be stressed too highly. Unless a dedicated effort is made periodically there will be problems that will leave you stranded and/or shelling out big bucks for starters and alternators and other gee gaw replacements.

 

I will definitely get new cables and do that first. About 3 months ago I cleaned the terminals and replaced the + connector with a new one. But I didn't replace everything. I will replace both with new ones this time just in case.

I might end up buying another battery as well to have a fresh one on hand to put in. Since the current one is probably dead then I'll have to charge it first and it's in the parking lot at work. Yes, I'll have to do all of this at work on my DAY OFF AT WORK!!! It sucks! Best case, I can take the new one back after one use.

I do have a multimeter that I use often that I'll take with me to take readings ya'll are talking about. It a great troubleshooting tool.

Before I noticed the lights going completely out I was thinking IAC valve, Carburetor needing adjustment or Electric choke messing up. So, if there is anything else to check while I'm there in the morning please let me know. I'm on a very tight timeline so if I can't figure it out I'll have to take it to a garage and I don't want to.

Thank You Fuzzface2, Franklin2, WhatsAChevy? and Tedster9 for your replies.

Also, Thank You in advance to anyone else that chimes in to help.

 

http://www.aa1car.com/library/2002/cm10220.htm

http://www.aa1car.com/library/voltage_drop_testing.htm

Voltage drop testing especially is a good skill and really saves time when troubleshooting. Can also make a party out of removing the battery and cleaning up the sides, the tray, etc and put it on the charger for some happy time while replacing the cables and cleaning the ground points. The start solenoid needs a good ground too at firewall or fender through the bracket and bolts. Some people like to run a thick cable directly to a bolt on the starter from the battery. Coat with grease or NO-OX after tightening securely.

All of this is PITA tho a lot more enjoyable now than in January on some -20 morning. Thawing out POS reman starters with propane torches etc.

 

Ok.. Update while in progress. The battery is steady at 12 and when the truck "magically" started after a few tries it went to 13ish. It's an analog meter so I can't be exact.

One thing I did see when it didn't start the first two times is that it would "click" and everything went dead. cab lights, radio, digital clock. After a few minutes it came back to life without me doing anything. The second time I tried to start it from the solenoid and I noticed a good spark come from the + of the battery and I wasn't even touching it. It's on securely and no rust or corrosion. While I was looking at the length of the ground from the battery to the frame, I noticed that it is split in the middle and wired to the frame and then going to the engine block? Regardless, I'm getting new ones and putting them in.




Ground wire on the frame then going to the Engine Block.




Terminals and the Solenoid on the left.

One of the guys that work where I do stopped by to try to help and he said he had something similar with a friends old Ford that the starter had an issue and when it tried to start it would cause a short and the truck would go into a safety mode and act like the battery was dead? I don't know, so I will relay this to y'all and see if it makes sense.. FYI I changed out my starter under a year ago.

Anywho, I was able to peel out of the parking lot without stalling and made it home without having to stop. The engine had the skip/pause until about halfway home. I pulled up into the garage and put it in park. Let it idle and it's running normal now. Possibly some bad gas too? Someone did suggest that and to put a bottle of 99% isopropyl in each tank to dry out the water. He said they use to do it "back in the day" instead of buying the over the counter stuff. I looked it up a little and it's been done but this is the first I've heard of it.

I turned off the truck because I don't want to press my luck. Plus I have to let it sit until I can get a ride back to the office to get the Mrs. truck I drove there with all my tools in it.

That's where I'm at now and I'll update more once I get the cables and swap them out.

 

That terminal on the + side of the batt is NOT the way to go and as you found a cause for the no start.
The ground cable is the factory ground cable and does run the way you see it. Thing is replacements do not come like that. You would need 1 from batt to that place on the frame and another cable from there to the motor.


Now as for the bad running if the cable only connected for it to start then did not make a connection you would be running off the ALT and that could be why the poor running.
Dave ----

 

Looking at that picture, I'm not surprised you're having problems...

-Temporary-use clamp-on battery terminal on the + side (which actually looks like it might be an OK connection)

- Exposed conductor on the other end of that cable at the relay = corrosion internally in the cable

- And what is that other fat wire on the same terminal of the relay? The one that is usually on the *other* large connection of the relay and that supplies power to the starter motor? Is that actually connected to the same terminal as the battery + cable?

- But on the other side of the relay - where the starter motor usually connects - is a small-gauge wire taped to a blade fuse with a wire running to God knows what?

-The negative battery cable... exposed conductor (which leads to corrosion in the cable) with dirt & debris surrounding the entire area, implying a possible bad connection at the battery post.

All in all, I'm surprised that setup actually worked for anything....

I have never heard of a "safety mode where it acts like the battery is dead," somebody's blowin' smoke up yer ***.

 

Sooooo, Where is the + supposed to be run to? That's the way it was when I got it. I'll see if I can look up some diags to see until someone replies.

I'll look at Gary's Garagemahal and Rock Auto to see what I can find till then.

 

Pull the battery and clean it up. Sides too. Clean batteries last longer, not sure why but they do. Windex works great w/Ammonia. Wire brush the posts. Make sure the plates are covered, add distilled water if necessary. Put on charger at a low rate for several hours or overnight. Preventive maintenance pays dividends.

Trace out the ground cable to the block. Disconnect and grind connection down to bright shiny metal, past grime, oil, paint, etc. Reinstall and tighten securely. Coat with vaseline or NO-OX to keep out corrosion.

 

No not that it should not go there but what ctubutis said. He also picked up on something else I did not when I first looked at your picture is how the solenoid is wired in is all back azz words. No make that just not right! I did not look at it close because it worked before so figured just leave it be.


Did someone install a pm gear reduction starter? It looks like how it would be wired if one was installed, all be it a crappy job.




Normally the batt + goes to 1 large lug. The red wire on the batt + temp clamp should be on the solenoid that the batt + in on.
The other cable that is on the solenoid + cable should go to the other large lug on the solenoid.
The small ga. wire on the small lug I would say is from the ign. switch and is hot when you turn the key to start and pulls in the solenoid.

Quote:

But on the other side of the relay - where the starter motor usually connects - is a small-gauge wire taped to a blade fuse with a wire running to God knows what?

I have no clue either what that other wire is for on the large lug that the cable to the starter should be on. Do you know where it goes? Maybe that is not a blade fuse but a diode as some starters need that to keep them from staying engauged when starting.




I would say for now if it was working to just replace the large cables the way they are now and make sure it starts all the time.
Once you have time look into why the wiring change, it could be it has a gear reduction starter and it would be wired that way.
Dave ----

 

I would also say to start with one thing at a time, replacing the primary cables & cleaning up the terminal connections would be good.

I guess it's possible he has a starter motor with an additional relay/solenoid on it, never thought of that. Regardless, I shudder when I look at that setup....

 

-Temporary-use clamp-on battery terminal on the + side (which actually looks like it might be an OK connection)

That's what I put on that I had in the garage because the old one was crap.

- Exposed conductor on the other end of that cable at the relay = corrosion internally in the cable

Just came back from getting all new wires with the terminals on them, the grease for the connectors for corrosion and I even got some boots to cover the terminals when I'm done.

- And what is that other fat wire on the same terminal of the relay? The one that is usually on the *other* large connection of the relay and that supplies power to the starter motor? Is that actually connected to the same terminal as the battery + cable?

That red wire and the black one on the solenoid are going to my push button start because the wiring is bad between the engine bay and ignition. I turn the key and hit the button under the dash. It's my anti theft for the truck.

- But on the other side of the relay - where the starter motor usually connects - is a small-gauge wire taped to a blade fuse with a wire running to God knows what?

The "shop" did that when my original solenoid got stuck and wouldn't disengage. I burned up a starter and solenoid because of it. It sucked cause we were out and I couldn't turn the truck off after the starter went *poof*. They said putting a fuse inline would stop that from happening again. And that was all put in before the wiring went bad somewhere between the solenoid and the ignition.

-The negative battery cable... exposed conductor (which leads to corrosion in the cable) with dirt & debris surrounding the entire area, implying a possible bad connection at the battery post.

I'm going to take the battery out, clean it and put it on the charger while working on it now that I have everything here at the house.

All in all, I'm surprised that setup actually worked for anything....

I have never heard of a "safety mode where it acts like the battery is dead," somebody's blowin' smoke up yer ***.

I wouldn't have had a clue on that. That's why I lurk n learn and ask questions here.