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460 Radiator Question

Old 04-21-2018, 05:55 PM
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Originally Posted by FrankGRUN View Post

Eddiec, its just amazing that someone (you?) stuffed that second AC compressor in a EFI 460! I also thought that additional idler was a very important possibility for increasing belt contact area on the alternator pulley. Wonder if it could be used with the regular belt setup just for the alternator?
The bus is a Startrans shuttle bus for airport transportation or church bus. They did the conversion. That 2nd A/C bracket is custom made and weights like 20lbs! And that stupid thing is right in the way of working on the t-stat.

The bus is designed to idle for hours and run both chassis and rear A/C units running. The only mod they did was install the heavy duty clutch fan for the cooling system and added a "idle up" device to bump the idle up to 1000 to 1100RPM while in park. Till the radiator tank seam blew and rear heater hose cut buy road debris, I never had it over heat once.

I did install a mechanical temp guage and with a 192F t-stat .I see the coolant go up to 210F then clutch fan kicks in and temps drop back down to 192F while in stop and go traffic or idling.
Old 04-21-2018, 08:59 PM
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My 99 E350 front bumper in the center seems to duct air beneath the engine, great place to put a transmission cooler if the grill is too full, the bumper would be a great upgrade for the pre 97 for the extra air intake.
Old 04-22-2018, 02:54 PM
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Conrod, Yes, I suspect the air flow and pressure patterns will be very different between your vehicle and mine. I have a Born Free Class C motorhome built on the E350 158" cutaway chassis. The motorhome is 24 ft. long, 10 ft. high and 8ft. wide. The overhang above the E350 cab and the transition area from the E350 cab and the bulk of the motorhome must be the poster child of turbulent flow generation! At one point, I added tufts of black wool yarn to see what the pattern looked like, front and back. All I succeeded in doing is nearly causing an accident on the freeway with everyone staring at the site, probably wondering if this was a Halloween float!

For my measurements, I use the Dwyer Differential Pressure Manometer with a 0 to 2 inches of water full scale measurement range. It has two pressure inlet ports and surprisingly responds quickly to 20 ft. lengths of vacuum tubing. These are very expensive purchased retail, but quite inexpensive on eBay. I use it to understand and locate high and low pressure zones around the vehicle but the data should be appreciated as relative. Absolute pressure measurement in a moving air stream is a very complicated endeavor and not worth hobbyist time investment, IMHO. For airflow measurements, I use a vane anemometer. I will switch soon to a separate vane connected by cable to the readout and may go to an iPhone app driven unit, but I haven't finished evaluating the hardware specs.

In our discussion of effective air pumping by aerodynamics vs. electric fans, I was reminded of a visit to the NASA Ames Wind Tunnel (in my former life). We were both studying the impact of directed plasma flows in a modest vacuum. I was using traditional UHV stainless vacuum hardware (tanks, turbo and cryopumps, etc.) which gave very space constrained experimental areas. The Ames group simply walked into a vacuum room, placed the hardware for an experiment on a table, put the supporting electronics in a rack, closed the sealed door and pumped the whole volume (the room) down in an impressively short time. The vacuum is generated by a steam ejector system which is a substantially enlarged version of a venturi pump - the same technology base used for industrial scale production of freeze-dried coffee! (sorry for the digression!)

Eddiec, I can see the spatial conflict with the thermostat cover! But I'm going to study that area to see if I can use one of the diesel idler pulleys to help increase the pulley area coverage for the alternator.
Old 11-06-2018, 02:47 AM
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Functional Update!

Gentlemen, I realize that a considerable period of time has passed since I first initiated this thread, but there is serious news to impart. Over the past several weeks, I finally found the time to gather all the parts and implement the conversion to the dual Windstar electric fan system together with the changeover of the accessory drive for the 460 engine to the serpentine-like Poly-Vee setup. As you would expect, I first removed the existing clutch fan and radiator shroud and then proceeded to remove the appropriate mounting brackets, pulleys, alternator, power steering pump and York AC compressor. It was stunning to compare the relative weights of the York compressor and the Sanden 8105 compressor to be used with the Poly-Vee setup.

Contrary to several FTE posts about the conversion of fan belts to the post '87 460 EFI Poly-Vee setup, the bolt holes for mounting the Alternator/Air Pump and AC/Power Steering brackets to heads, water pump and block were all the same size for my 1982 block as they were in the 1994 E350 block that I stripped for the parts. The mounting of the Air Pump posed a problem in that I had modified the '82 pump for free-wheeling (emission disabled) and did not want to use the 1994 smog pump. The '82 smog pump used centrifugal filtering of the input air and the '94 pump drew air from an external filter. In other words, two pipes cast into the pump body for the '94 and one for the '82. My limited space also voted for the '82 version pump. Given that the mounting of the '82 and '94 pumps in their respective brackets was identical (bolt circle, relative distance to pulley, etc.), it only required swapping the Poly-Vee pulley to the '82 version pump to salvage my un-emission mods and bolt the '82 pump to the '94 bracket.

While the two brackets bolted up easily and the smog pump, alternator and Sanden A/C compressor bolted up easily, mounting the power steering pump was a nightmare. In my case, I had just had the power steering system serviced about 3 months before executing this conversion. Consequently, my '82 Saginaw power steering pump was in certifiably excellent condition, the '94 Saginaw was of unknown quality and I elected to swap the '82 onto the '94 bracket. In my cursory inspection, I concluded that replacing the PS pulley with the Poly-Vee unit would be physically impossible with the pump installed on the mounted bracket in my engine compartment confines, given the necessary press-fit procedure. I therefore mounted the '82 Saginaw pump with 6-row pulley before installing it on the block. I then discovered that the high pressure hydraulic line from the pump to the steering box was significantly different for the '94 as compared to the '82. After purchasing the replacement '94 high pressure line I found that swapping/mounting that line cost me more than 6 hours of painful effort as well as several busted knuckles.

As part of this effort, I purchased a Powermaster 200 amp alternator (modified Ford 3G, Model 47759) and upgraded the ground connections (to both frame and engine block) as well as the line to the battery to AWG 4. I also opted tor the Powermaster 3G adapter harness (Model 131) to enable ignition or idiot light charging trigger and electric carburetor choke heating. I purchased the 200 amp capacity alternator after measuring the current draw of my various accessories on the motorhome including the stereo, subwoofer, fog, headlight and driving lights, A/C blower AND the electric fan system. The total came to 140 amps and the 200 amp rating gave a reasonable margin.

I also chose to use the Sanden 8105 compressor which is a variation of their bulletproof SD7H15 series, instead of the factory installed FS15 or FS10 Ford compressors. The Sanden 8105 or 4628 compressor is a direct fit for mounting on the Poly-Vee A/C bracket as it was supplied as part of the dealer-installed A/C option. This required adapter hoses to be fabricated. I kept the existing evaporator for the A/C system but changed out the '82 condenser and drier for the current higher efficiency R134A components.

After installing the Poly-Vee required components, I slid-in the (previously described in this thread) shroud with the integrated Windstar (Dorman) dual fans. I had added Fireblack high temperature (self-adhesive) foam gasket (1/8' thick and 1/2' wide) to the full surface of the shroud where it contacted the radiator shell. I added the gasket because of the air gaps readily evident in the original shroud mounted against the radiator shell. The install was straightforward, the shroud bolted up easily and there was about 2" clearance between the face of the pulleys and the closest part of the fans.

After considerable research, I chose the AutoCool III fan controller from AutoCoolGuy.com to handle the fans. It is a Pulse Width Modulation (PWM) dual fan controller that handles 100+ amps, uses a clever temperature sensor that follows the temperature of the coolant leaving the radiator and entering the block and applies slow start technology to minimize the turn-on current of the fans. Of course, the Dorman Windstar replacement fans draw 37.5 amps (together) at full power (Dorman specs.) so this controller has a considerable current control margin. The actual fan speed is a function of the applied voltage. The PWM controller applies different width and frequency pulses to vary the effective voltage applied. I added some semiconductor modules to measure the effective applied voltage by the controller to the individual fans to trigger a relay when the voltage was in a particular range. I chose a voltage range for the first relay that corresponded to 1/4 to 1/2 of full speed. The second relay triggers (and stays on) between 3/4 and full speed. The relays trigger color coded pilot lights in my custom instrument panel. I have set the AutoCool III controller to hold the exiting radiator coolant at 175F, or 10 degrees below the block thermostat temperature.

Road testing is underway but won't be completed until the A/C system is recharged next week. However, thus far, the Windstar dual fan system and AutoCool III setup has kept the radiator temperature at 175F after warm-up and the engine block temperature has held between 180 and 185F. I'm running a 185F thermostat.

When I began this project I assumed that I would have to throw away the engine electrical harness and rewire the vehicle. Instead, I find that tying the alternator output (4 AWG) to a junction box (upgraded starter solenoid) which was joined to the battery cable (4 AWG), the power lines to the electric fans (8 AWG) and the power distribution lines to the vehicle fuse box (10 AWG), there is less than 0.1V drop across any line and no wire or contact heating. The grounds including battery to frame, battery to engine, alternator to frame and alternator to engine are all 4 AWG. Basically, all the high current loads bypass the original fuse box system and therefore the OEM '82 wiring system is fully compatible with the upgraded high current capability of the alternator. My wallet was relieved!

In my next post, I'll add some pictures of the install, although I wasn't able to capture a step-wise sequence to fully illustrate the whole process.

Old 11-06-2018, 04:23 AM
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As I indicated in the last post, I wanted to share a few pictures of the completed install of both the serpentine-like Poly-Vee accessory drive system and the dual electric fan Windstar/Dorman assembly integrated into the OEM Ford 460 radiator fan shroud. In the final assessment the accessory drive was very straightforward after acquiring the parts, and the electric fans went in with plenty of clearance, if such a thing can be said about any mechanical operation in a 3rd generation Ford Van!

To begin, the picture labeled "Crude View" is looking down at the gap between the shroud and fans and the poly-vee tensioner also showing the electrical connector to the larger fan. The next image shows the clearance between the Poly-Vee drive belt/pulley at the alternator and the fan/shroud.

A better view of the clearances in the alternator area is given in the next image labeled "Clearance". The next image, labeled "Relocated Coil" showed the Crane high voltage coil bolted to the A/C bracket along with the distributor and A/C compressor.

I included the the next image to show just how compressed the engine compartment space is for those of you not familiar with the 3rd generation van space restrictions. For the following image, the camera has been pulled back to show the cruise control servo and the mounting of a vacuum gauge and digital tachometer for carb tuning.

The next picture shows the AutoCool III controller and the speed-sensing voltage modules. To place these, I cut away a section of the cowling lip above the A/C evaporator/Heater housing and above the battery. The place was a good locus for the power, ground and sense wires needed for the fan controller and had good air flow as well as no interference with battery access or removal.

Again to illustrate the level of accessibility, the next image, labeled "Engine seen from Doghouse" gives a view from the removed doghouse area at the rear of the engine showing plumbing, carburetor and wires. The thermally shielded plumbing encloses the Holley recirculating pressure regulator and appropriate fuel lines. The line to the carburetor inlet is also shielded and is double walled with vacuum barrier insulation. In the carburetor line I have also mounted a 0-10 psi fuel pressure gauge.

The next image shows the face of the AutoCool III controller and its input and sense lines. The heavy 8 AWG control lines are on the opposite side of the controller in the recessed area of the cowl.

The image labeled "Hose Location" shows a better view of the Sanden 8105 A/C compressor and the hoses for coupling to the condenser and evaporator. This area is especially tight. I've included the view labeled "Engine Compartment" to show a better perspective of the installation and to emphasize the cold air intake feeding the 4" inlet air cleaner.

Finally, and all out of proper order, the last image shows the clearances in the area of the tensioner and the Poly-Vee drive of the A/C compressor.
Old 11-06-2018, 10:32 AM
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Very nice. Lots of great info and pics as well. I miss those big engines.
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