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New, confused and frustrated
#1
Donna2015's AvatarDonna2015 , Today 02:51 PM
Hello everyone! I have been reading these posts for a while. You all are amazing. I am recently divorced and working on re-establishing my income. That means no room in the budget for a mechanic. Unfortunately I am confused and frustrated. This mechanic stuff is new to me. I am a behind the desk type girl, but willing to try anything. I rely on you all and Youtube to do everything. You have taught me a lot and I am grateful. I am hoping you can help me with this situation.

I have a 1999 Ford e150 cargo van v6. The van ran fine until one of my staff ran it out of gas. When I put gas in it the van no longer would start. When I turned the key power would come on and I would hear the fuel pump prime. I decided to change the fuel filter thinking that when it ran out of gas I clogged the filter. Well that started a new set of issues. I then Changed the fuel pump. We don't need to address that process. I learned how to do it when I took the fuel pump out of the gas tank at the junk yard. They are interesting places. I did not completely hook up the tank to the van until I checked out the wiring to make sure the fuel pump would make a priming noise. Yes I did put a little gas in the tank after I cleaned out the tank completely. The old pump was filthy. The new/used one looks brand new. When I replaced the pump I replaced the pump and filter as a set as I took it our of the one in the junk yard thinking I might have screwed something up when i tried to change the fuel filter the first time. I do not get anything.

Now I don't hear the pump come on. I think you all call that priming the pump. I think I messed something up electrical. I started to do all of the checks that I read about. I learned how to read and use the meters. From what I have read in this forum it makes sense to start from the beginning.

Checked the battery - it is putting out 12 volts sometimes a little higher sometimes a tad lower. Especially when I did a load test. Kind of hard to do because not everything would come on. The lights came on and the buzzer buzzes. Everything that runs off of relays doesn't come on because the relays are not getting power

I found the fuses and the relays with the schematics. I pulled and checked every fuse. Some needed to be replaced, but they didn't have anything to do with this. At least I don't think so.

I checked the relays. For all of the relays that I could find are not getting power.

I read about this thing called a PCM. The PCM has two hots and they are good reading 12 volts.

They were corroded and the bolt for the ground was so bad it broke. I had a "friend mechanic" who left the hood open . I think the rain had something to do with that. In all honesty I haven't a clue what else he did. I towed the van back home so I good give it a try. AT least I know enough to close the hood. LOL

I cleaned the connections and extended the wire for the ground to a clean metal place on the frame.

Still I am not getting power coming out of the PCM. At least I don't think so because nothing else is getting power even after I cleaned and reconnected everything.

Before I go back to the junk yard to get a new PCM I am trying to check the out- put connections. So far I am not able to get the thing high enough to check the connections because they are on the bottom. I pulled on everything and they are tight, but I am not convinced the connections are clean after what I saw on top.

Any suggestions on how I can pull it high enough to disconnect - clean and reconnect?

Is there a way to by pass that PCM?

If it isn't the PCM is there anything else that I am missing that goes between the PCM and the relays?

The "Friend mechanic" said I should just replace the PCM and all of the relays. I do not have any faith in him since he didn't have the sense to close the hood.

I think it is premature to replace anything before I can check those connections. Am I wrong or should I just assume the PCM is bad?

Could this PCM really be the problem or could it be a totally different problem?

Oh I also forgot to mention that when "Friend mechanic" tried to charge the battery he told me he smelled something burning and the radio started to come on and off by itself. Could that have fried something? Getting that radio out without the right tool was quite a trick. Could I have fried or hurt anything when I took out the radio?

I did not see anything on any schematic that connects the radio directly to the PCM. Is there something I am missing. I see that it went to a fuse and that was one of the fuses I had to replace.

The fuse box is getting power. reading between 1-5 amps. Is that what it should be reading? I am not sure if that reading is good or not. If I have a fuse greater then 5 amps wouldn't it need to have the access to more amps? Does that have something to do with the load? But even if a 20amp fuse could read less unless it has a load on it wouldn't the reading range going to the box be high enough to meet the expectations of the highest amperage of the highest fuse?

I have great respect for all of you who know how to do all of this stuff and understand it. I understand why you all need degrees for this stuff.

Any and all suggestions would be greatly appreciated.

If this is the wrong forum I am sorry.

Thank you, Donna
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#2
ctubutis's Avatarctubutis , Today 04:09 PM
Hi, Donna,

No, I wouldn't be replacing the PCM and/or relays unless it/they is/are proven to be the source of the problem - which I really doubt, given a quick breeze-through of your post.

But you are really in the wrong forum to be asking technical questions (you're in a hi-how-ya-doin-my-name-is forum) so I suggest you copy-n-paste to not only the van forum but also the truck forum for your year van - that's because the truck forums tend to get more traffic and more people than the van forum.

Truck forum for your year:

1997 - 2003 F150 - Ford Truck Enthusiasts Forums



Van forum:

1968-2013 Full Size Vans - Ford Truck Enthusiasts Forums

Welcome to FTE!

-chris
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Thank you Chris.
I have since rechecked the relays. All but 2 are getting power . I am now checking the neutral safety switch.

 

I assume there is some indication on the dash for a check engine light, or some other light thats telling you that the vehicle is having issues.

If possible you need to start by having someone hook up an OBD2 scanner and read the fault codes that the vehicle has stored, if any. The connector for this scanner is located under or very near the steering wheel, under the dash right about where your knees are when seated in the drivers seat.

Some autoparts places will let you borrow or rent one, or you can have a friend who has one do it.

Failing that, you might need to figure out some way to get it to a dealer or good auto repair shop so that they can read the codes. This is just a starting place, it wont fix your van, but it might give you an idea of what is going on.

If all else fails, you can buy these units at Harbor Freight, Autozone, NAPA, Carquest, Sears, and of course, on Amazon. Make sure any unit you buy or use is compatible with your make, model, and year. Most are, but some have limits as to what they will work with. You can find a decent scanner in the $40 to $100 range.

It sounds like a complex electrical problem, but it may just be a bad ground or shorted wire somewhere. If the code reader cant establish any communication with the vehicle diagnostics and PCM, then that will be another issue.

Its worth a try.

Good luck.

 

The most important part of your story doesn't make sense.
Please explain the part where you discovered the problem, the exact symptoms, and what lead to that.

 

Your friend mechanic is obviously and idiot- don't let him touch your van again.

He left your hood open in to the weather , suggested guessing to replace a bunch of parts that were expensive and not yet confirmed bad, and it sounds like he hooked up the battery charger backwards.

 

If a battery charger was hooked up backwards, that WILL cause problems.

In years past, Ford had installed fusible links to that would blow in order to protect things when that sort of thing happened; I have no idea what they do today (or in 1999) to offer that sort of protection.

 

Thank you for your response. He is an idiot. This van is a nightmare and I need it to be fixed properly so I can sell it. I am sorry this is so long. I am trying to give you as much detail as I can so that I don’t waste your time. Here is the vans history that I know about. I haven’t a clue what this guy did.
1. The van ran fine until it ran out of gas. I put gas in it and all of the lights would come on including the radio. It would crank but not turn over.
2. When I turned the key I would hear the fuel pump make a noise.
3. I not being a mechanic thought maybe it needed more gas.
4. Still cranks but wouldn’t turn over.
5. I got on this and other forums and read that if I took the air filter off and sprayed starter fluid into the throttle body it would think it had gas and turn over. Not successful.
6. I then checked the battery to see if it had enough power to start. It was low at first so I charged it. I charged it to where it was putting off 12 volts.
7. Then I went to the throttle body and cleaned it out with carb cleaner. It was a mess and the flapper thing was sticking. I cleaned it and now it works fine. Well it opens and closes like it should but still no start.
8. I bought a spark plug tester to see if it was getting spark. I can’t get it turned over to check it. Again I am not a mechanic.
9. I gave up and the so called friend mechanic said he was an expert mechanic and could fix it. Because he was a disabled vet and was going to be homeless I let him move onto our property in a trailer. We have 18 acers so he was far enough to give us privacy and we towed the van to where he was staying. I noticed the hood was up. He told me he saw a snake in it and would put it down later. It rained like the dickens. Stupid me thought he put it down. And I didn’t check it for a while. I honestly had a ton of other things to do as well as starting a new business to get my life together. I guess it was a few weeks later that I went over to his side of the property. He would come to our house for all meals / bathroom and laundry ext. So I didn’t have a reason to go to him. When I did and I saw the hood STILL up I lost it. I towed the van back to our house and garage. He is still here but I am about at the end of my rope. If he touches my van again I guess he will be in a shelter.
10. I asked him all that he did and it is like talking to a wall so I had to start from the beginning. Well sort of. Lots of things were taken apart and I am figuring out.
11. It came back worse than it left.
12. No crank but all of the lights come on. I am angry and confused. No fuel pump sound either.
13. What I started to do.
1) I started with the battery - Keep in mind this is after the guy charged the battery heard the radio come on by itself and said he smelled something burning.
a. There aren’t any clean words to describe what I was thinking and feeling.
2) I got a good reading from the battery. 12 volts
3) I then went to the fuel filter. It was a bear to remove. I found out later that it is connected directly to the fuel pump. That did not make my day considering the fuel pump is in the gas tank.
4) I went to the junk yard to practice dropping the tank and removing the fuel pump with the filter and all the lines that go in between.
5) I have the tank on blocks close to where it should go and connected it back up. I had to run extension wires to make good connections. I cleaned them all first to make sure the connections were clean good and tight.
6) Nothing.
7) I started to google diagrams. From what I could tell the battery sends the power to the PCM and the PCM distributes the power to the starter and really everything. Before I went to the PCM I saw that there was a fuel pump cut off switch. Yeah me I found it. The button was in the down position as it should be. I popped the button up – cleaned it all off with my air compressor. I pushed the button back down and shook the thing and the button popped back up. I reset it and put it back. I did not check it for power yet. It seemed more mechanical then electrical.
8) There is another fuel pump connection in the back of the car. The connections looked ok and they were tight. I took them apart anyway to clean them just in case – and then reconnected them.
9) Hmmm - Looks like I am to go back to the PCM
10) The PCM connections were loose and yucky. I cleaned them and reconnected them. I do mark everything that I take off so it goes back exactly the same way I took it off.
a) It has two hots and a ground. The ground was so bad that when I tried to tighten it down the screw broke. I found a good spot on the frame that didn’t have any paint on it and attacked the ground it.
11) I started to check the fuses and relays for power. I was getting good power to the fuses. At least I think so. They were running between 1-5 amps. I still don’t understand how that would support any fuse over 5 amps but ok.
a. I noticed some fuses were bad. I replaced them. One was for the radio. Imagine that.
12) I went back to the battery and checked out the wire that goes to the PCM. It looked ok but I giggled it and now I am getting a reading on some of the relays. Two out of 8 of them are not reading anything. There seems to be two fuel pump relays and they are not getting power. If you were to look at the relays there are small ones and 6 big ones. The middle two big ones are not getting juice. I am thinking but not sure that one of them is the starter relay and the other one is one of the two fuel pump relays.
13) I started searching and googling again. I saw that that the Neutral safety switch could be a problem with the distribution of power. So I tried to start the van in every position.
a. Still not a sound of the fuel pump or anything else other than the buzzer for the door. The lights still come on.
14) I now am getting frustrated.
15) I saw a video on how to bypass the Safety neutral switch.
a. I took a jumper wire to the starter solenoid connection and then touched every wire in the safety N Switch I am going to refer to it as the NSS. I now know what one fed the solenoid. I put the other end on wire in the NSS - Nothing.
b. I looked again at the fuses . I now have 3 – 10amps and a 15 amp fuse that is now not getting power but the fuses were good. All of them had power before when I checked it the first time. I also found a 10 amp fuse that in between checks blew and I replaced it. All of the other fuses are getting power.
16) I now do not have a clue what to do. I am out of ideas.
17) The only thing I can think of to do is to take the PCM out and check those connections. The so called mechanic said he pulled on them and they were tight. Tight doesn’t mean clean. Especially after leaving the hood up.
18) Other than blowing this thing up do you have any ideas?
I hope this explained it correctly. I would be glad to provide any information that would be helpful. AT the moment I am out of money but I do have commercial bounce houses to trade if anyone lives in the tidewater Virginia area.
Thank you so very much for any help you can offer.
Donna

 

I am not very good at how to respond. I hope this works. LOL I have the baby little orange scanner. When I plugged it in it told me no link. So I tried it on another car and the scanner is working fine. Any suggestions?

 

When I plugged it in it told me no link.

This tells me the scanner can't talk to the computer... which I will surmise is because the computer isn't getting any power... which I will further surmise is because the guy hooked up the charger wrong.

If everything is stock, there is a good chance this didn't hurt the computer nor any of the other electronics as there should be devices in place to protect them when this sort of thing happens - these devices were called fusible links.

So I am thinking you need to investigate this - the computer should get power via a relay that's actuated with the key in START or RUN but I'm betting that's not happening.

In years past, the fusible links (2-3-4 of them, it depends) were all gathered together and connected to the battery side of the starter relay, I would be looking there. To test, grab each side of the link and try to pull it apart; the rubber pieces will separate pretty easily if the wire contained within it has blown.

~~

Your original problem sounds ignition-related, i.e. you could hear the fuel pump priming but weren't getting spark. But I will admit I haven't read everything and tried to comprehend the sequence of events nor do I fully understand where you are now with it (other than you are frustrated and upset).

If you could find some wiring diagrams describing the PCM relay and how/when/from where it gets power, it would be a terrific aid IMO.

 

Thank you. I am looking for those fuses now on the side of the battery. are they in a separate fuse box? Do you have any suggestions on finding a diagram? That would be a great help.

 

They are not fuses but instead are fusible links - effectively they perform the same function - protecting the circuits & devices - but operate a bit differently and take longer to blow than a normal fuse does.

In any event....

Here is a single fusible link up close:






Here is I see two of them on the battery side of the starter relay like I described above:





As for wiring diagrams, boy, I don't know... it used to be there were printed manuals with that stuff, but then came computers and later the Internet and so I have no idea how Ford does it in modern times (of which 1999 qualifies).

For example, Ford used to publish this thing called an EVTM for each model and each year - the Electrical and Vacuum Troubleshooting Manual - but I kinda doubt they still did/do that in modern times BUT THEY MIGHT I just bought one on eBay for my brother's 1996 Bronco. the EVTM is a great manual for electrical diagnosis but isn't entirely complete with all of the details the full wiring diagrams provide (in a separate manual).

But search around the 'net and see what you can find....

 

I agree with Chris - it would be extremely helpful to have an EVTM on the vehicle, but wiring diagrams would suffice. Anything that would let you backtrack from the PCM to see where the juice stops. In fact, w/o wiring diagrams you really don't know which wires need to be hot or grounded to tell the PCM that all the safeties are in their proper state to start.

In fact, it might not have to be a wiring diagram for your van. Ford was pretty consistent with wiring colors, so if you found a wiring diagram for a vehicle close to yours it might work.

 

I dont know what a 'baby little orange scanner' is...and it may or may not be compatible with your vehicle. Maybe it is, I just dont know. But you need to find out if the PCM (brains) of the vehicle are working, otherwise, nothing else you do will get it running. Look in the manual for that tool to see what it works with.

'No link' might mean the van's black box is fine but the scan tool is incompatible. But it might also mean the PCM is fried. We just dont know. You might have to sell this van as-is because as it stands, I doubt we will make any progress or be able to help on a forum. This is a hands-on type of problem, and not gonna be solved by a simple 'hey did you try this' answer.

I'll give you an example: Reading 5 amps with a meter while probing a fusebox makes no sense, from a technical point of view. We would need you to test fuses for go or no-go, good or bad. Putting the meter across the test points on a fuse is meaningless unless you know exactly what you are doing, and what you are looking for.

Normally you would ground the negative lead, then set the meter at the 20v range (or use a simple test light), and using the positive probe, you would test each side of each fuse to see if you have the same on both points...and assuming the battery is good, all fusible links are good, and all the relays are good, the PCM is alive and well, and the ignition is ON. If you dont see the same at each test point, you have a bad fuse. But that meter wont read amps thru the fuse this way....thats a different type of measurement, and done quite differently.

Sorry to be the bearer of bad news but reality is what it is.

From what you have presented here, neither you or your visitor should do any more work on this van until and unless you have a knowledgeable technician, handyman, or mechanic on scene to guide you. You might not realize it, but batteries can explode, wiring harnesses can catch fire, and working near the fuel pump and gas tank without a good knowledge and experience level can cause injuries (or worse). You said it yourself, you are normally a desk or office type of person...seems to me you are getting in over your head on this one.

I'm trying to save you aggravation and possible further damage and loss of money chasing your tail on this one.

Again, good luck and please take the advise as just that, friendly advice.

 

She was able to remove and replace an in-tank fuel pump, that says a lot about her skills and abilities.

Nevertheless, break it down into components; you need three things for an engine to start and run: fuel, ignition, and compression. The problem began when it ran out of gas but so much has been changed at this point, other problems could have come about as a result (and connecting the electrical power backwards is a definite cause of problems).

So, staying on the fuel component... priming when initially turning it on is good, that's what it's supposed to do - although this doesn't guarantee the fuel pump is running with the key in START or RUN.

But get the fuel pump running and test fuel for fuel pressure at the rail on top of the engine.

The EVTM should have a diagram explaining how the fuel pump, PCM, relay, fusible link and key switch are all connected, you can use that along with a meter or test light to determine if power is at the right places at the right times which should provide fuel to the engine if all else (plumbing, filters, etc.) is good. There is probably even a way to force the fuel pump to run all the time by jumping some wires, this procedure is outlined in the older computer-controlled engines (those with the OBD-1 system, one jumped wires at the diagnostic port) but I have no idea on the OBD-2 system (but I would have to assume the capability is there somehow, some way).

OBD-2 systems are standardized from a diagnostic standpoint (federal law) in that they all need to have a diagnostic port in approximately the same location and one can use a scanner not made by the vehicle manufacturer to see what the computer might be complaining about.

 

Agreed but electrical and electronic issues can be tricky for technicians with even 30 years on the job.

This is true BUT. There is no such law for the scan tool manufacturers and they can design and manufacture units that work or dont work with some models/years and not others. They are free to specialize and read codes from certain vehicles and not others. There is a lot of programming and software involved to dig deep into the onboard diagnostics of any late model vehicle ECM.

In other words, not all code readers will read and display all codes from all years and all models from all cars ever built in every country on the planet, or even the USA.

I hope your advise to the OP will help her resolve the problems. Thanks for continuing the discussion.