I don't really care when the thread was started,the fact is that some forums have threads 50 pages long that go back 10 years or more ,a thread is only as old as its last post.If you disagree with something that is posted sack up and speak your mind,but save the lame *** comments such as this thread is 5 years old.

 

When you are making comments on a post made 5 years ago on a topic that has been covered hundreds of times since the only lame *** comments are the ones you are making.
Don't like getting called out for stupid then don't do stupid.

 

While the operationally the new boxes as the same as the older boxes, how it actually gets done is not. So there may be a timing shift with the new box. While these units were still being fitted during production the boxes the primary OEM was Motorolla. Since they became service parts Wells has become the OEM. So Wells (WVE) or Motorcraft they are the same bit.
it might be worthwhile rechecking your timing Cory as the new box may have shifted it. I have never done a side by side with the older boxes and the new ones. I do know they do not use the same internal bits. And it's not uncommon to see the potting pull away from the case on older boxes the board it's self is encased so operationally it should be fine. The ones that puke actually have the potting breakdown for whatever reason.

 

Ya, I'll stick the light on it one of these days and check it. It's working so well right now I don't even want to touch it lol.

 

Matthew,
You say the box changes dwell how does that not change timing? I know changing dwell will change how hot the spark is so I can see that but?

Going from what I know of point system if the dwell changed so did the timing and why I wonder about the dwell change on the box how could it not change timing?
I cant see the electronics knowing to make the spark hotter but not change the timing in doing so. Then again I don't know electronics and they can do some crazy stuff.
Dave ----

 

And here is where things can go sideways.

With points, a cam the triggers the points and that cam is fixed its ramps do not change. Increasing the point gap decreases dwell thus advancing the timing. Decrease the point gap and the dwell increases retarding the timing.

Just as a reminder Dwell is period of time in degrees that the coil is on or grounded.

With DS II the armature (toothed bit) in the dist induces a voltage in the pickup (it is just a hall effect sensor after all) and as soon as the module senses voltage from the pick up it opens the ground to the coil (turns the coil off) thus collapsing the field and generating a spark. This can not be done any earlier as the module needs the signal from the pick-up to open the ground (trigger coil off) and that signal is fixed and independent of the ICM.

After the coil's ground has been opened or turned off a timing circuit in the ICM delays grounding the coil (Turning it back on) to allow time for the field to fully collapse.

In the Blue DS II module when the module is fed power on the white wire during start a second timing circuit is used that has a longer delay before the coil is grounded again (turned back on) thus shortening the dwell, This is done to mitigate coil overheat when fed 12V,

The White module, has a third timing circuit that delays opening the ground on the coil after sensing voltage from the Dist pickup. This delay increases the time from signal generation in the pickup to open the ground In the coil (coil off) thus retarding the timing. Other than this operation is the same as the Blue DS II Module.

Now the Yellow module is functionally the same as the White one except the delay from signal generation to coil off is low altitude in run and start and is controlled by the Barometric pressure sensor, when it senses 6000ft (IIRC) that delay is removed and the timing advances.

The Blue DS module is not functionally the same as the White module or the Yellow module, For the Blue module to have a crank retard would require an additional timing circuit for crank retard.

The Blue DS modules do not have crank retard it was not part of the specifications. Now that does not mean to say none of them had that additional crank timing delay circuit, as you never know what the F aftermarket or even Fords own suppliers did.....

The Blue DS II modules were little more than electronic points and were not really any more advanced than Ford's transistorized ignition system of the 1960's. DS II in it's original form was the most basic of any of the big three electronic ignition systems.

The Red module (DS I) and SSI (Green and Black modules) are completely different from DS II and are considerably more complicated and more advanced in their operation compared to DS II.

 

It sounds like your the one that gets upset for being called out for being stupid so take your own advice,as far as responding to a comment that has been talked about elsewhere hundreds of times since,it doesn't change the fact even thought that subject had been talked about thousands of times of times for years and years prior to it,statements are still made that give the impression that the blue grommet modules were reliable from the beginning,while nothing could be further from the truth.I can see where someone located in California during that time would form the opinion that the red grommet boxes were turds simply because they would be the vast majority of the boxes they dealt with,whereas someone who lived somewhere far enough east that they seldom saw red boxes,and dealt predominantly with blue grommet boxes would form the opinion that they were the turds,when in realty they were all unreliable turds initially.In 1976 and 1977 we always carried a spare blue grommet box because they were so unreliable and initially it didn't matter where you sourced it from.So back to my statement from my last post save your lame *** comments.

 

Listen to you are the fool that decided to post a rebuttal to something posted 5 years ago, And ND has posted that EXACT same post multiple times over the years. So what exactly did you hope to accomplish by Necro threaded something POSTED 5 YEARS AGO with the conversation closed and could ONLY be found in an obscure Google search. Really you must enjoy necro threading just to hear your self.and seem like you have some importance to post stuff finished with years ago. Cause you added nothing to the conversation..... SO if you don't like being called out for doing stupid then DON'T DO STUPID. And don't double down on it.

And furthermore, the DS i modules (Red Modules) were NOT the majority of the modules used in Cali not be a freaken long shot they were ONLY used on the 302 and ONLY in certain applications. They predominately used the Blue DS II Modules. like everyone else. So not only do feel the need to necro thread a closed topic that NO ONE is looking at you don't even know what you are talking about. And DS II was far far more reliable than DS I or SSI and failure rates were on par with HEI and CEI in the era.

 

Matthew,
Thanks for that information it makes sense that it is the signal from the PIP to set everything in motion.
Dave ----

 

Now your little tantrum is starting to look stupid,your starting to sound like some teenager that has convinced himself that he is some kind of genius,were you even around in the timeframe I referred to?And talk about someone who doesn't know what he is talking about,if you were around and driving a Ford back then you would know that the early blue grommet boxes failed all the time,andthat your statistics don't reflect the number of people that replaced their own modules,or payed a non dealer repair shop to do it,because they considered paying a dealerships ridiculous labor prices a waste of money.You would also know that the 302 was by far the most commonly installed engine in Ford cars larger than a Pinto in those years,even if you weren't around then a few trips thru a wrecking yard would have made that clear to you.You are right that the early HEI and early Mopar electronic ignitions also had a high failure rate,that by no means indicates that they were a reliable system early on.I also agree that by 1980 the blue DS II was a lot more reliable,but don't try to blow a load of smoke up everybody's *** by trying say there was nothing wrong with the early ones,that just makes you look more stupid.

 

Considering you have no clue what YOU are talking I question if YOU were actually around. As for my self, I was working at FMoCoC as an engineer actually trying to improve these systems and part of the team doing the statistical analysis of the failure rates across North America and FYI they were NOT constant across the continent...and Ford got the data from the aftermarket manufactures on units sold cause you know patents and royalties and stuff..... So what were you doing exactly back then that makes you think you even have the first clue?

So as much as YOU think you know, I quite confidently say you do not have the first clue what you are talking about as you have so eloquently demonstrated.

So go try that BS with someone else kiddo cause we are not buying it....

 

First of all the only thing I have tried to say from the beginning was that the early Duraspark modules were unreliable ,not that I was some expert on the system themselves,no matter what BS you try to spout to hide that fact it won't change that reality.Everybody knows that the Duraspark system matured into a great ignition system that was easy to use and retrofit,but to try to maintain that it was a reliable system from the get go is utter hogwash and everybody that was around back then knows that.The impression of you being a teenager throwing a temper tantrum was based on your failure to proofread your posts,As far as being an engineer at FMoCoC,if your attention to detail was no better than it is now,maybe you were more a part of the problem than the solution.By the way I also never claimed that failures were constant in any part of the continent,I also never claimed that red modules were the only ones used in Cali,just that they were more predominant there than any other state.If you had actually read the original post and comprehended what it said,you may not have written your lazy cryptic lame *** post that started all this.If you took my original post as an attack on the Duraspark system in general that is your problem because that's not what it said and that's not what it was,it was simply a statement that the early modules no matter the color of the wire strain were unreliable,and anyone that tries to argue that is simply retarded

 

And that is the difference Iam fully versed in the dura spark models while you are trying to use anecdotal and handed down information to hang on to a point and looking like a moron n the process. Give it up already you are just looking more and more like some sort of half wit moron.
Further More the 302 WAS NOT the most commonly installed engine in vehicles larger than Pinto in that era the most commonly installed engines were in the 351 range by just about a 2 to 1 margin to anything else if you had actually been around then you would know this and instead of making stupid statements like that. Funny how Ford needed 3 Casting plants and 2 engine family's to keep
up the demand for engines in the 351 range but could easily meet 302 demand with one primary casting plant in the era.. Again you clearly have no clue what you are talking about
Furthermore, the Original SSI units were actually quite reliable failure rates were very low, When the cost-cutting started is when things went to crap. So no once again "the early modules no matter the color of the wire strain were unreliable" Is not correct, and once again if you had actually had been around and had half a clue you would know better than to make such a retarded statement.
And YOU exactly said. "I can see where someone located in California during that time would form the opinion that the red grommet boxes were turds simply because they would be the vast majority of the boxes they dealt with" So now you're trying to backtrack on that. or did you not fully understand what you said. The DS I WAS NOT the majority of boxes they would see in Cali. it was used on the 302 and NOT in everything either not by long short. And the 302 was NOT the most commonly installed V8 In the era, that happen until 79-80. AFTER DS I had ceased to be used.

And still hanging on to stupid trying to justify commenting on a post made 5 years ago..... I the guess the "there is no fixing stupid" statement still seems to ring true as you have so eloquently demonstrated..

 

So Matthew or John, neither one of you has answered the original question from 5 yrs ago. Can a BLUE ds2 icm be field tested at the junk yard before purchasing it to be sure it works?

 

In short no. There is no way to tell if it will actually switch when fed a signal from the dist without powering it up.