Hey guys,
Our truck has been starting and running fine for a few months now. But all of a sudden it won't start. Here is a youtube video of what it is doing...


We've checked the battery and even swapped it out with a well-charged spare battery, but we get the same results.

A friend suggested it might be the solenoid wire, but he's not a 100% expert, so I thought I'd check here before I try anything else.

A little history: Over the last few months it has been running fine. When we start it the first time of the day, it cranks up happily and we are on our way: "RN-RN-RN-ROARRRR". But after it runs and heats up, if we shut it down, then restart it while it is still hot, the starter seems sluggish. "RRN...RRN...ROARRRR". It always started after a turn or two, but the sluggishness made me wonder. We have a 351W with a T5 transmission and this mini starter from DB electrical: DB Electrical - NEW FORD MINI PMGR STARTER 302 351 MANUAL TRANSMISSIONS 3223 SFD0012

Any suggestions?

Thanks! Tyler

 

Also, our starter is pretty close to our headers and there is no heat shielding protecting it. T

 

It's a short video so it's hard to tell exactly what I'm seeing. It looks like the starter is attempting to crank the engine but it doesn't have the oomph. My bet is on a poor ground. That starter takes an amazing amount of muscle to turn over that engine. If you replaced a battery-to-frame ground there's a chance either the bolt on one end is loose or you've got a little rust build up between the contacts. Sure, the starter solenoid might be a problem too. You can bypass the start solenoid entirely and connect the battery straight to the starter to see if it cranks. If it does you know it's either the solenoid or the connections to it.

Before you do that however, see if the engine wil crank freely and easily with the plugs out. If it does then you definitely have a connection problem. Recheck those grounds and even the positive leads.

Edit: I just watched the video full screen here on my tablet. What's strange to me is the cranking sound the starter makes while engaged but the engine obviously isn't cranking. It's almost like the starter mechanism is slipping. Was this a new starter? Not rebuilt or played with in any way?

Edit #2: did you verify the part number of the PMGR starter before installation? I'm wondering if you were sent a starter for an automatic. They look identical on the outside but on the inside there are two distinct differences. The automatic starter drive gear extends further than the manual to mate with the flywheel. If you put the automatic starter on a manual you 'may' get the starter to engage but only barely. After a few starts you'll start to wear the teeth. That's what it seems like to me. I could be wrong. But the winding is very suspicious.

 

Thanks for the reply. I think my son tried to bypass the solenoid with no change but I will verify and retry. And I'll look into the other stuff too.

I did not verify the part number of the stater. I remember a couple of in-depth phone conversations with the folks at db electrical about which was the right starter. But it's been about two years since we put it in so its hard to remember the details. (Truck has only been on the road since Christmas).

Thanks! Tyler

 

The way those starters work is the solenoid on the starter energizes the main motor, and throws out the drive gear. If voltage drops too low, the solenoid on the starter drops the drive gear back (motor may still spin). Do you have a separate wire to the solenoid on the starter? Is it a reasonably heavy gauge? Are you also using the stock-type firewall mounted solenoid?

 

Here are pics of my starter as installed. I am NOT using the stock firewall mounted relay (you said solenoid but did you mean relay?). T

Edit: my understanding is that all the relay and solenoid hardware is built in "piggyback" on the starter itself. But that sometimes (in hot conditions like Tucson summers?) you might still need the firewall mounted relay. I don't really get that but I've heard that can be the case. So perhaps I'm losing voltage or amperage due to heat damage to my relay/solenoid? T

 

So the problem exists only when the engine is hot. It starts just fine when the engine is cold. That does not sound like a connection problem to me. Maybe you're right that the starter is getting too hot because of its proximity to a heat source.

Try putting a heat shield between the header and the starter.

 

No that WAS how it was behaving. Now it won't start at all and the starter is always sluggish with that winding sound after a turn or two...

 

Try a good set of jumper cables ground to motor and hot to starter . then hit key . that should cut out wires grounds and connections as problems

 

You're correct on all counts. The GM motored guys frequently use a Ford firewall mounted relay in addition to the solenoid integral to the starter, due to heat problems. But if the solenoid is fried, it won't cure that.

I'd pull the starter and see if the solenoid can be disassembled. They use a piston and I suspect that piston is not moving freely. Could be baked-on grease or running in plastic that has gotten soft.

 

Ok I may do that in the morning. But if the solenoid can get fried from environmental heat, how/why does putting in the stock relay prevent that? The relay doesn't stop it being 130° on the pavement here in Tucson, and God only knows how hot in the engine bay....

 

Beats me, I think guys do it after they get where you are, and install a heat shield plus the relay...

 

Fair enuf

 

Did you check the timing? Sometimes the timing is too far advanced and could cause hard starting issues when hot.

I know you said it is happening all the time now but initially it was when hot.

Could be that the starter needs to be replaced after the hot hard starting problems beat it up?

 

I thought about that but no I have got gone that route at all yet. Thanks, I'll look into that too.