I've brought this up before, there is an active thread on this very topic, there is monster demand for it, and yet we don't have a scan tool forum. I looked at the chips and tuning forum (for all model and year Fords) - 22,000 reads. Just one AE class thread has 58,000 reads. Many of those reads and posts have nothing to do with the 7.3L - they are found with a search for information on this one scan tool. I think there are as many 6.0L guys in there as there are 7.3L owners.

Add up the posts and reads for Torque, AE, and generic scan tool/gauge discussion and the numbers are staggering. This is a real trend right now, not just with Fords or the 99-03 7.3L. Are we afraid the crickets will invade the 7.3L forum if the scan tool general questions are moved out? There is plenty to discuss and share here with the 7.3L data from said scan tools.

No... I do not have time to be reliable as a moderator on a scan tool forum. Sorry.

 

But Tugly, I already had my vote cast for ya!

 

i will bring it up to administration.

maybe we can have it added to the general subsection

 

the general consensus with staff so far is that the scan tool discussions should stay the way they are, in each seperate vehicle forum.
this way people will ask in their engine forums and get the answers to their questions there, instead of a generic buy this tool answer.

 

Well... it's a definitive answer. Thanks for considering it and reporting back.

 

I see that as reasonable answer in that folks here know exactly how the 7.3 should be in its values. But not so much a 6.0 or any of the others.

 

So maybe create a sticky @ the top of the page? Could use the existing thread regarding AE class?

 

Yeah...... we're working on getting the tech folder cleaned up and ironed out. It's definitely on our list of things to add.

 

As much as I initially agreed with Rich's idea, after considering Tom's response (seen for the first time today), I must admit that I have been somewhat swayed to agree with Tom.

A scan tool of some type or another should be a given before undertaking any work on a vehicle manufactured during the last 20 years. The people best qualified to help individuals interpret the results of a scan tool are best found under the forum of the specific engine/drivetrain being scanned. It is the results of the scan that is fodder for forum discussion, resolution, and archiving, not the act of scanning itself.

Do we have a separate forum for multi-meters? For screwdrivers? For wrenches? Then why have a separate forum for scan tools, which are yet another tool in the box needed for the diagnosis and repair of the vehicles that already have an adequate forum classification.

So that logic makes sense... until you try and decide upon, purchase, receive, configure, deploy, and finally implement your scan tool of choice in diagnosing a vehicle. That's when one realizes that it ISN'T just like picking up a screwdriver, or a wrench, or even a multimeter.

Scan tools are complex electronic programming and detection devices, and the cheaper the scanning device (the cheapest being the $15.00 blue tooth dongle with the $5.00 Torque Pro app), the more complex training and discussion is required to make the most use of it. My scantool originally cost $4,000.00 retail, and I must admit, it is about as simple to use as a hammer, and is built like one too. But somewhere in the middle between the extremes of a budget phone app and a bulletproof factory scantool is the compromise that most people choose... a software app that relies on a laptop PC computer, which in and of itself adds another layer of complexity to get it all working right.

Discovering the differences between, and discussing the deployment of, various scan tools and devices isn't like distinguishing between an end wrench from Matco versus SnapOn. Not even close. Scantools aren't wrenches. They are the entire monkey... full of mischief and unexpected surprises. Complex beings. Predecessors to man.

As such, despite the fact that the results from a scan tool are best discussed in the individual vehicle forums from which those results were obtained... simply getting results PERIOD is an effort that in and of itself remains worthy of a specific forum, so that people with ANY vehicle can gather together and share notes about how to get up and running with their new tool.

And so I arrive full circle, agreeing with Rich's proposal once again, despite Tom's salient argument that only temporarily dissuaded me from seeing the light. The light is that this is 2015, and the proliferation of scanning devices has escalated in keeping with their increasing necessity and decreasing cost. It is time for FTE to open up a room to foster the growth in membership interest in these devices, and that room should have a cross platform sign on the front door, not just 99-03 7.3L.

 

actually, i kind of agree that there should be a centralized scan tool place where people can go to ask what should i get, what is the difference between whatever and whoever.
but on the same lines what is good for someone with a 02 7.3 will not work for someone with a 89 7.3, or someone with a 2015 6.7.
and the scan tool for the person with a 97 5.8 will not work the same for the person with the 95 7.3 either.
so while a centralized scan tool section sounds like a good idea, by leaving it in the engine specific forums really does make sense.

 

Tom: * When we look at the torque pro, Android, or xda-developers forums or the forums dedicated to "rooting" the generic Chinese head unit, we see the amazing amount of detail that the next generation of car enthusiasts are bringing to automotive discussions. While we were raised with grease and wrenches, these kids are coming at autos from computer programming backgrounds and EE degrees. The future is using scan tools to monitor or to "hack" their vehicle's onboard diagnostics and controller area network bus.

FTE can grab some of that traffic and bring some of those brilliant minds over here, but not if the scan tool discussion is buried in engine specific forums.

I get it that FTE has been around a long time, and it is set in its ways, but trust me on this: monitoring and even hacking vehicle systems is the future. (So much so that the gov't and vehicle manufacturers have plans to discontinue CAN and to go totally stealth.)

For fun take a look at this guy who has hacked a E350 and a 6.7 Cummins and is designing aftermarket harnesses to install the Cummins in the Ford:

Sportsmobileforum.com ? View topic - 6.7L Cummins conversion project

Or check out the CANbus Triple which is shipping its first product after raising investment capital via Kickstarter:

https://www.kickstarter.com/projects...cking-platform

https://canb.us/

These kids are Arduino and TripleCAN savy.

I myself am about to pull the trigger on this soldering station so I can replace the three 20-year old capacitors which are beyond their service life in the EEC-IV PCM in my 1995 Bronco 5.8:

http://www.ebay.com/itm/181284450351?_trksid=p2060353.m1438.l2649&ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT
Let me say it this way: Engines and their vehicles are becoming secondary to the electronics that drive them in the new kids' view of things.

Please make a centralized home for these kids here, so we can learn from them.

FTE can grab that traffic and latch onto the future with a top level forum devoted to engine monitoring, diagnostics and hacking or it can go the way of the IBM PC, or Lotus 123 or WordStar. They all owned their respective markets at the time, and their lunch was eaten by more innovative forward moving upstarts.


Which will FTE be?


* (Aren't you the guy who "Beat Anorexia?")

 

I can certainly see the point and counter point to this discussion. Some excellent points have been made.

On one hand I could see a repository for all the data elements to be stored for easy retrieval by someone in need. All known good data for comparison by the user. Just as we do daily when troubleshooting these beasts.

On the other hand, the two primary issues I would oppose it on is 1. There is no standard tool which everyone uses. The GUI’s and display data of the various tools is mind boggling. How an open source program became so convoluted is beyond me. 2. Most people purchase tools without the basic understanding of what they’re purchasing. So, it’s really more of a training environment than any other that it will be morphed into.

The Scan Tool was actually incorporated into the DVOM. The original Scan Tools were Graphing Display Meters. There is more need of a DVOM than a scan tool so they couldn't sell them. So, they married the two together. The Scan Tool as we know it today in an OBD System is an asset to only those who know how to interpret the data and knows its limitation as it relates to system being scanned.

I was explaining to someone in a thread to Back Probe a Hole witha DVOM and he sent me a PM that said "He didn't think his wife would do that". I'm sure that was a joke. I got a good laugh. But seriously, until people help themselves, they'll never improve with someone doing it for them.

For example: Someone will post a code PXXXXX and say “has anyone seen this before?” Most times they won’t even Google it to see if there is any information. What they’ve done is purchased a tool, retrieved a DTC and now they have no idea what to do. As such, I just went ahead and wrote scripts for posting the majority of my responses because they’re repetitive to the same questions. When the Copy write police show up I’ll gladly accompany them to the dungeon.

This internet stuff didn’t exist when I had my first scan tool and oscilloscope. I bought books, learned them through education and training classes, and the help of generous senior technicians who took the time to teach me when he didn't have to, and my full time job was a Fireman.

These systems (PWM) are like an abacus compared to today’s vehicles. I don’t have to open a dash to watch a blend door actuator on a third generation Powerstroke. I just activate it on the IDS and it tells me if it’s moving as designed, how far, and if adjustments can be made via the Tool or do I need to replace it.

Rich, honestly, you would be the only one working it after a while. Everyone else would slide out the door when someone wasn’t looking and you’d be alone. However, I applaud your passion. Sincerely, you have the best learning experience in this forum, “Stinky”. You know more than any ten Technicians I know today. Because you just didn’t give up.

I was reading one evening years back one of your postings where you had gone in two or three times with no improvement and must have spent about $4k if I recall. All I was thinking: I’d be getting a check from the insurance company if I owned that thing.

Be careful what you ask for, you just may get it. The denial may well be for the best.

 

Well I've been flushed out. I just bought a scan tool and I was hoping there would be a central place where I could ask stupid questions.

In my particular situation, I will be learning how to use the NGS on my 1995 Bronco 5.8 gas and on my 2002 E350 7.3 diesel. So when I m learning the fundamentals of just how to use the scan tool, do I post my question in the:

1. FTE 1978 - 1996 Big Bronco forum? or

2. FTE 1987 - 1996 F150 and Larger F Series forum? or

3. FTE Small Block V8 (221, 260, 289, 5.0/302, 5.8/351W) forum? or

4. FTE Misc. Electrical Systems/Wiring forum?

Are there really that many NGS scan tool gurus in each of the 50 or so FTE forums? What if I pick the wrong forum? And nobody there has an NGS scan tool? Am I just screwed?

Or should I post in each of the above forums, hoping to draw someone out who by the luck of the draw has my same scan tool?

What if I have a question in common to the NGS on the E350 7.3 and on the Bronco 5.8? Like graphing PIDs? Do I post in all of the above forums and in the 7.3LPSD forum and in the 1968-2013 Full Size Vans forum?

Or must I close my eyes, throw a dart and then when I hear crickets chirp in my hopeful thread pm Y2KW57 and beg him to look at my NGS thread in such and such forum?

Or how about this, we have a top level forum for scan tools and people post questions like what NGS card do I use to analyze this PID or how do I graph with NGS Wave software in a format that I can then send to Tugly over at the 7.3PSD forum?

A top level scan tool forum might draw scan tool experts - what a concept!

We may get responses like "Well, I don't know crap about the EEC-IV PCM but I know you can look at your EGR system with this part of the NGS, or I don't know crap about diesels, but I can definitely show you how to create a graph of those PIDs with NGS Wave data software, but who that guy Tugly is and what he thinks he can do with the graph, I don't have a clue.

One top level forum.

At least four scan tools, drawing experts in each:

1. AE
2. Torque Pro
3. Infinity
4. New Generation Star
5. etc.

Over at forum.thinkpads.com we have a top level forum called X6x Series incl. X6x Tablet

It covers five different computers X60, X60 Tablet, X61, X61s, and X61 Tablet. Each computer has different characteristics and limitations and the mods and hacks are different depending on the computer. I usually only read the X61 threads, but the gurus there are in and out of all five threads helping thinkpad owners with any of those five computers.

If we had a top level scan tool forum. No doubt we would draw top level scan tool gurus familiar with one or even more scan tools and no doubt even the gurus would learn something about a tool of which they were once skeptical but which may have advanced.

You simply cannot expect a scan tool guru to be cruising the 50 or more FTE forums to look for someone to help with their new scan tool.

One top level forum: Scantools

Build it. The gurus will come.

Or don't. And someone else will. And FTE will lose eyeballs and wither away...

Scan tools are the future.

Wake up Mr. Potato Head !?!

 

that is the reason for FTE staff wanting to keep things the way they are is so people will ask engine questions in the proper forums, not all over the boards.

asking what type of scanner to get to use on a 5.8 in a 7,3 diesel forum is only going to help you, not the next guy looking for the same answer. and asking what to do with a scan tool in a generic tool forum may not get you the answer you are looking for, but asking in that vehicles engine forum will.
the only thing a central scan tool forum would benefit from is people asking which tool to get, and then they will get 50 different answers from 50 different people.
even in the dedicated engine forums, people can not agree on what the best scan tool is. everyone has their own opinion.

 

I dunno... I get a lot of questions on how to record, how to post the data on the forum (the forum accepting csv files as an attachment would not offend me), how to adjust the PID scale, etc... I'm not thinking in terms of me being the one to answer the questions - quite the opposite. Like Tim suggested, a scan tool forum will draw AE users with all levels of experience from the many different forums to that thread. It's not just a matter of how to use it with a specific vehicle - it's bug workarounds, installation how-tos, enhancement activation, next generation news, new scan tools, etc....

The Torque Pro PID list and troubleshooting the 7.3L with AE belongs here, the AE/Torque installation class belongs there.