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So a hitch will cause my frame on my F350 to bend if someone hits me as little as 10mph?? BUT j can hook up to a 10k trailer and have all that tongue weight slamming down and it cause no damage......or I can pull out a stuck F550 plow truck loaded with salt and again cause no damage to my F350's frame.
So a hitch will cause my frame on my F350 to bend if someone hits me as little as 10mph?? BUT j can hook up to a 10k trailer and have all that tongue weight slamming down and it cause no damage......or I can pull out a stuck F550 plow truck loaded with salt and again cause no damage to my F350's frame.
iPhone from IB AutoGroup
You typically are not slamming tongue weight down you gentle lower into place and that is an even and secured load. your trailer does not act like a battering ram when you stop it is connected pretty solid. When you have 3-4000 lbs hitting a stationary object it transfers alot of force. For example back your truck up to a concrete wall so you are touching it. Then give er heck. You will do no damage other than burning tires. Now back into that same wall at 15mph Your going to tweak something.
I've seen several wrecks that wouldn't have been as bad had the hitch not been there. And I know people that have gotten tickets for it. I really font understand why you leave it in, if your not hauling. It's not hard to remove, and safer for everyone.
The tickets were in Virginia. But they will write them for in state or out of state trucks. I don't know if any other states write them. If I had to guess, I would have said NY or California wold do it. They are all about the revenue from tickets and vehicle laws.
And I've been the car backed into by the guy with the hitch still in.
I've seen beds buckle from rear end wrecks, and the bumper is still straight. I've even seen hitches buried in the radiator of the car, and the car leaves with the hirch, because the truck can't pull it back out.
You typically are not slamming tongue weight down you gentle lower into place and that is an even and secured load. your trailer does not act like a battering ram when you stop it is connected pretty solid. When you have 3-4000 lbs hitting a ststionary object it transfers alot of force. For example back your truck up to a concrete wall so you are touching it. Then give er heck. You will do no damage other than burning tires. Now back into that same wall at 15mph Your going to tweak something.
well said.
to put it another way, since you mention a hooking onto a 10,000lb trailer. would you lower the coupler on you trailer such that it contacts the ball, then back into it at 10mph?
or would you take your 1,000 lbs tongue weight and drop it on the ball from 1-foot above? how about 3-foot above? how about 7-foot above?
if not, why not?
why 1ft, 3ft, and 7ft? 7ft sounds extreme, who would do that?
those would equate to 5mph, 10mph, and 15mph impacts, but a 15mph impact is no big deal, right?
there's a big mathematical difference between accelerating or decelerating a heavy load in a controlled manner, and decelerating a smaller object in a very abrupt manner. Remember, that energy goes up as a square function of the velocity, where as it is a 1:1 ratio with mass.
also keep in mind that the time spent decelerating the vehicle that hit you is very short, making for a very high acceleration rate thus very high forces.
The poster above who doesn't understand how force works also mis-read this part of the post:
Originally Posted by Krystal Kid
It only takes an impact around 10 mph to wreck the frame of a uni-body vehicle like the Jeep above and a 15 - 20 mph impact to wreck a frame railed vehicle like most pickup trucks and SUVs. Plus the more the ball mount is dropped (like a 4" drop type or 6" drop type) the easier it is for the bullet vehicle to apply the force.
It says that it takes a 15-20 mph impact to bend the frame on a pickup/SUV. Since we are talking about an F-250 here I would guess we are talking about more of a 20 mph impact.
A 1 year old camry rear ended my 2008 f150 when i had the hitch inserted. I was stopped at a red light.
Totalled the camry.
Damage to my truck 1130 dollars.
Would have been much more i am sure if my hitch was not there and the back of my truck had to take the full impact.
Just my 2 cents.
You typically are not slamming tongue weight down you gentle lower into place and that is an even and secured load. your trailer does not act like a battering ram when you stop it is connected pretty solid. When you have 3-4000 lbs hitting a ststionary object it transfers alot of force. For example back your truck up to a concrete wall so you are touching it. Then give er heck. You will do no damage other than burning tires. Now back into that same wall at 15mph Your going to tweak something.
Reminds me of that saying, it's not the fall that hurts you, it's the sudden stop.
I don't normally get involved in forums but the discussion on this thread is exactly what we've been studying for the past 13 years in development of our impact attenuators.
Taken from Tacoma World Forum:
The culprit for each of you with frame damage after being hit in the rear is your ball mount. If you take a look at the Jeep Grand Cherokee above you'll see what I mean. This vehicle was hit by a small Ford Focus at less then 10 mph and although it has little rear end damage it was a total loss.
The problems start because passenger cars sit lower then pickup trucks or SUVs and when they hit the rear of your vehicle they don't hit the bumper they hit your receiver hitch and they start to dive (because of their soft suspensions). This downward force or wedge effect is really accentuated if the driver of the bullet vehicle applies the brakes right before impact.
If your ball mount or any other fixed or static receiver hitch product is in your receiver hitch it acts like a can opener forcing the receiver hitch down in the rear and upward in the front. Notice the Jeep's ball mount is bent downward and the roof was raised. This ruined the frame and the vehicle was a total loss.
It only takes an impact around 10 mph to wreck the frame of a uni-body vehicle like the Jeep above and a 15 - 20 mph impact to wreck a frame railed vehicle like most pickup trucks and SUVs. Plus the more the ball mount is dropped (like a 4" drop type or 6" drop type) the easier it is for the bullet vehicle to apply the force.
That's why driving around with any non-energy absorbing receiver hitch product is not a good idea.
A receiver hitch completely changes the crash dynamics in the rear of a vehicle by creating a stiffer "crash pulse" because of it's rigidity. Receiver hitches actually increase your risk of whiplash by 22% so leaving anything in the receiver hitch only moves this problem toward the bullet vehicle. Now that 22% may not seem like much but your wife and kids are already two times more likely to suffer from whiplash then men because they're necks are not as strong.
That's the main reason we developed our attenuators - the Superbumper and Sparebumper...to absorb some of this crash energy, soften the crash pulse and reduce the whiplash risk.
Some of our customers have been involved in impacts to 45 mph and have not lost their vehicle due to frame damage. Part of the reason is that the absorbers crush 2.125 inches which shortens the length of the lever and because they're tubes, there's little for the bullet vehicle to grab. Plus at impacts over 12 mph the actual tubes start to crush so that the lever ends up to be just over 2" in length. The typical ball mount is basically an 8-10" lever. See crushed Sparebumper photo below.
Most people think you need something bigger in the rear but the fact is 6 out of 10 rear end collisions are direct hits and another 3 out of 10 are 2/3 rds over-lap. In other words at least 2/3 rds of the vehicle will hit yours.
If you add a stronger bumper you will protect the rear of the vehicle but you will also increase the rigidity consequently increasing the risk of whiplash to the passengers. That's the main reason OEM's went with flimsy bumpers.
But keep in mind only passenger cars have 2.5 mph energy absorbing bumpers. Pickup trucks, SUVs and mini-vans fall under the category of "trucks" according to the Federal Bumper Standard so they do not have energy absorbing bumpers. But, as I mentioned earlier, passenger cars won't hit them anyway.
My first 17 years were spent as a teacher and a coach so sometimes I feel compelled to educate as many people as I can about the hazards of a receiver hitch. So this may sound like a pitch for our products but forgive me if it sounds that way.
If you feel the need to drive with your ball mount in for protection then turn it so that it's in the "rise" position and not the "drop" position even if the hitch ball is upside down. This will prevent the bullet vehicle from grabbing it and using it as a lever. Like Archemedies: "Give me a lever long enough and I'll move the earth."
You want to get the bend of your ball mount above 15-16" if you can because the Federal Bumper Standard for passenger cars is set at 16". This will allow them to under-ride your pickup truck and although you may think under-ride is a bad thing, it actually dissipates the crash energy over a longer time period resulting in lesser chance of whiplash.
Sincerely,
Jeff Mohr
CEO
Mohr Mfg
sparebumper.com
I wouldn't dare mention a particular political affiliation ......although I feel confident I could guess which one applies here, It would appear that you, or at least the manufacturer you represent would like to turn the tables in these incidents and blame the owner of the (in this case) Jeep for the damage inflicted on their vehicle by an outside force (in this case a Ford Focus) that rear ended the jeep which by all standards that I have came to understand put the driver of the Ford Focus squarely and total in the wrong (negligent) and therefore responsible for any and ALL damage incurred in this incident. In essence making your product an unnecessary expense to the struck vehicle. Lay the blame/expense where it belongs...at the feet of the Focus owner and their insurance company and leave the Jeep owner out of it (they're only there due to circumstances beyond their control) wrong place at the wrong time.
I wouldn't dare mention a particular political affiliation ......although I feel confident I could guess which one applies here, It would appear that you, or at least the manufacturer you represent would like to turn the tables in these incidents and blame the owner of the (in this case) Jeep for the damage inflicted on their vehicle by an outside force (in this case a Ford Focus) that rear ended the jeep which by all standards that I have came to understand put the driver of the Ford Focus squarely and total in the wrong (negligent) and therefore responsible for any and ALL damage incurred in this incident. In essence making your product an unnecessary expense to the struck vehicle. Lay the blame/expense where it belongs...at the feet of the Focus owner and their insurance company and leave the Jeep owner out of it (they're only there due to circumstances beyond their control) wrong place at the wrong time.
I don't want to speak for Jeff, but I have no idea how you interpreted his information as you did.
He is not casting blame or making any political statement.
He is stating facts and describing the physics of the situation.
Its not a matter of who is at fault.
It is a matter of what happens.
When the insurance company decides that your vehicle is totaled (only because they don't want to have to pay to fix it), the other driver, even if fully ensured by a reputable company will only pay you at best the blue book value. Good luck trying to get a replacement vehicle for that!
Jeff's product is for YOUR convenience, safety, and cost savings.
I don't want to speak for Jeff, but I have no idea how you interpreted his information as you did.
He is not casting blame or making any political statement.
He is stating facts and describing the physics of the situation.
Its not a matter of who is at fault.
It is a matter of what happens.
When the insurance company decides that your vehicle is totaled (only because they don't want to have to pay to fix it), the other driver, even if fully ensured by a reputable company will only pay you at best the blue book value. Good luck trying to get a replacement vehicle for that!
Jeff's product is for YOUR convenience, safety, and cost savings.
I'll summarize a bit........I buy insurance to cover my rearend (literally) I shouldn't have to/be expected to buy anything else to protect anyone that hits me from behind....that's why THEY are required to buy insurance....as for the cost to repair/ payoff said loss, why would anybody want to invest more money than the vehicle is worth to repair said vehicle? That's my take, oh and when I see something that states otherwise I feel that a certain group of politicians has somehow influenced that thinking.....call me crazy, jmho
I wouldn't dare mention a particular political affiliation ......although I feel confident I could guess which one applies here, It would appear that you, or at least the manufacturer you represent would like to turn the tables in these incidents and blame the owner of the (in this case) Jeep for the damage inflicted on their vehicle by an outside force (in this case a Ford Focus) that rear ended the jeep which by all standards that I have came to understand put the driver of the Ford Focus squarely and total in the wrong (negligent) and therefore responsible for any and ALL damage incurred in this incident. In essence making your product an unnecessary expense to the struck vehicle. Lay the blame/expense where it belongs...at the feet of the Focus owner and their insurance company and leave the Jeep owner out of it (they're only there due to circumstances beyond their control) wrong place at the wrong time.
Exactly how i feel to.
Try and blame the victims.
I guess making people fear things helps sell bs products.
The insurance adjuster said my truck would have had MUCH more damage to it had my hitch not been there.
It hung low enough to keep the camry going under my truck smashing the box, bumper, spare tire, lights, backup sensors, etc.
She still woukd have hit the receiver as cars are low.
So i say leave the hitch in.
And i tow a lot so sure do nkt want to constantly pull the hitch on and off.
I guess some may tow just 5 or 10 times a year so they do not mind so much.
Also where is the pics of rhe front of that ford focus you mentioned?
And since we are a truck forum.....and trucks have massive crMes unuike a jeep suv.
Why not buy a used focus as a test vehicle....they are cheap used.
And hit a full size pickup with hitch at 10 or 20 miles an hour and post up them photos.
Fear mongering to sell junk is low and slimey IMO.
What next snake oil to cure cancer.
Ps. Nice FREE advertising though.
Maybe buy an ad spot here on FTE or say Truck trend magazine next time.
Ps. My insurance adjuster guy said he drives a truck, and leaves his hitch in to help save his truck if he gets rear ended. Because with 20 years doing what he does they save a lot of pickup damage.
Ps. My insurance adjuster guy said he drives a truck, and leaves his hitch in to help save his truck if he gets rear ended. Because with 20 years doing what he does they save a lot of pickup damage.
Insurance companies love vehicles with receiver hitches and here’s why:
Receiver hitches have been proven to take a 5 mph impact without showing any damage to the vehicle. It was proven by the Insurance Institute for Highway Safety.
There have been a number of posts (even in this thread) where drivers have been hit in the rear and haven't suffered and vehicle damage but the bullet vehicle is all messed up. Although we might think this is a good thing here's the BIG problem.
If you or more likely your wife and kids end up with a whiplash injury (Note: The 5 mph or 8 kph impact is actually the worst speed for whiplash) your insurance agent will come out and look at your vehicle and this is what they'll say; "Cowboy, your vehicle doesn't have any damage so how could you possibly have been injured?" Now you're screwed. You'll need an attorney to fight them to get any compensation.
The next problem is that attorneys have no idea on how to litigate this low speed impact. In fact, they may even side with the insurance company and think you're lying. A low speed impact is really difficult to prove for them.
So I spent 3 years developing a "rear end collision kit" that I actually sell to attorneys to help them prove these types of cases. I've seen where people have spent $20,000 to $30,000 of their own money for rehabilitation and not received a dime from their insurance company. This really sickens me.
To date, we've helped nearly 100 attorneys prove these cases and we have not lost yet. Receiver hitches are injuring people and we don't know the problem even exists until we're in the situation ourselves.
The worst part is 25% of the people driving a vehicle with a receiver hitch never tow a thing. That's a huge liability.
Here is the conclusion that I put at the end of each of the "Summary" letters I write for attorneys.
"Conclusion:
Receiver hitches prevent rear end collision damage and increase rigidity.
Rigidity influences crush distance and the “crash pulse” in a rear end collision.
Less crush distance and a “stiff” pulse will cause greater neck movement / acceleration than a “soft” impact pulse and a stiff pulse will cause a high neck movement.
Over-ride situations create higher acceleration and women and children are 3 times more like to suffer from whiplash injuries then men.
A vehicle equipped with a receiver hitch produces a stiffer “crash pulse” increasing acceleration to the occupants neck and the risk of whiplash by 22%.
Since the Insurance Institute for Highway Safety has clearly documented that receiver hitches will take impacts to 5 mph without showing any damage; it is my professional opinion that you simply cannot associate damage to the vehicle with injury to the occupants…especially when the vehicle is equipped with a receiver hitch for towing.
And since a ball mount is pinned directly into a receiver hitch (and is not energy absorbing) there was no energy absorbed by the ball mount that was attached to the rear of the vehicle driven by Mr X.
I feel to a reasonable degree of certainty, that Mr. X’s 2012 Ford F150 was hit directly on the receiver hitch and ball mount which resulted in very little visible damage.
Because a receiver hitch has been proven to increase the risk of whiplash it is my professional opinion to reasonable degree of certainty, that this accident was sufficient to produce whiplash resulting in the injuries to Mr. X and his passenger Ms. Y after being rear-ended."
Whiplash is the greatest danger with receiver hitches and insurance companies will try everything they can to not have to pay. This is the reason we developed our attenuators: the Superbumper, Sparebumper and Bumper Shield.
DOT’s have huge attenuators on the back of dump trucks and the main reason they are there is to protect the people in the work zone, the driver of the truck and the people in the “bullet” vehicle. Protecting the dump truck is the last thing they think about.
If you want to protect your pickup truck install a receiver hitch or a heavy duty bumper. But that will only increase your risk of getting injured. That’s why OEM’s went with flimsy bumpers. In fact, pickup trucks, SUVs and mini vans fall under the category of "trucks" and are not required to have energy absorbing bumpers.
So the next time your wife and kids get into your truck keep that in mind. This is the Biggest problem we have when driving a vehicle with a receiver hitch.
I used to be a teacher...I don't sell our products based on fear. I sell them based on EDUCATION.
Insurance companies love vehicles with receiver hitches and here’s why:
Receiver hitches have been proven to take a 5 mph impact without showing any damage to the vehicle. It was proven by the Insurance Institute for Highway Safety.
There have been a number of posts (even in this thread) where drivers have been hit in the rear and haven't suffered and vehicle damage but the bullet vehicle is all messed up. Although we might think this is a good thing here's the BIG problem.
If you or more likely your wife and kids end up with a whiplash injury (Note: The 5 mph or 8 kph impact is actually the worst speed for whiplash) your insurance agent will come out and look at your vehicle and this is what they'll say; "Cowboy, your vehicle doesn't have any damage so how could you possibly have been injured?" Now you're screwed. You'll need an attorney to fight them to get any compensation.
The next problem is that attorneys have no idea on how to litigate this low speed impact. In fact, they may even side with the insurance company and think you're lying. A low speed impact is really difficult to prove for them.
So I spent 3 years developing a "rear end collision kit" that I actually sell to attorneys to help them prove these types of cases. I've seen where people have spent $20,000 to $30,000 of their own money for rehabilitation and not received a dime from their insurance company. This really sickens me.
To date, we've helped nearly 100 attorneys prove these cases and we have not lost yet. Receiver hitches are injuring people and we don't know the problem even exists until we're in the situation ourselves.
The worst part is 25% of the people driving a vehicle with a receiver hitch never tow a thing. That's a huge liability.
Here is the conclusion that I put at the end of each of the "Summary" letters I write for attorneys.
"Conclusion:
Receiver hitches prevent rear end collision damage and increase rigidity.
Rigidity influences crush distance and the “crash pulse” in a rear end collision.
Less crush distance and a “stiff” pulse will cause greater neck movement / acceleration than a “soft” impact pulse and a stiff pulse will cause a high neck movement.
Over-ride situations create higher acceleration and women and children are 3 times more like to suffer from whiplash injuries then men.
A vehicle equipped with a receiver hitch produces a stiffer “crash pulse” increasing acceleration to the occupants neck and the risk of whiplash by 22%.
Since the Insurance Institute for Highway Safety has clearly documented that receiver hitches will take impacts to 5 mph without showing any damage; it is my professional opinion that you simply cannot associate damage to the vehicle with injury to the occupants…especially when the vehicle is equipped with a receiver hitch for towing.
And since a ball mount is pinned directly into a receiver hitch (and is not energy absorbing) there was no energy absorbed by the ball mount that was attached to the rear of the vehicle driven by Mr X.
I feel to a reasonable degree of certainty, that Mr. X’s 2012 Ford F150 was hit directly on the receiver hitch and ball mount which resulted in very little visible damage.
Because a receiver hitch has been proven to increase the risk of whiplash it is my professional opinion to reasonable degree of certainty, that this accident was sufficient to produce whiplash resulting in the injuries to Mr. X and his passenger Ms. Y after being rear-ended."
Whiplash is the greatest danger with receiver hitches and insurance companies will try everything they can to not have to pay. This is the reason we developed our attenuators: the Superbumper, Sparebumper and Bumper Shield.
DOT’s have huge attenuators on the back of dump trucks and the main reason they are there is to protect the people in the work zone, the driver of the truck and the people in the “bullet” vehicle. Protecting the dump truck is the last thing they think about.
If you want to protect your pickup truck install a receiver hitch or a heavy duty bumper. But that will only increase your risk of getting injured. That’s why OEM’s went with flimsy bumpers. In fact, pickup trucks, SUVs and mini vans fall under the category of "trucks" and are not required to have energy absorbing bumpers.
So the next time your wife and kids get into your truck keep that in mind. This is the Biggest problem we have when driving a vehicle with a receiver hitch.
I used to be a teacher...I don't sell our products based on fear. I sell them based on EDUCATION.
Sincerely,
Jeff Mohr
CEO
Mohr Mfg
Rather than highlight just the sections that apply I'm going to quote it all (call me lazy) but if one reads the first story you wrote....and then reads this story they conflicting opinions ie: receiver hitches cause MORE damage to the struck vehicle (the jeep) in the second story receiver hitches prevent damge to the struck vehicle to the point of not being able to tell that the vehicle was struck at all (which is it) therefore denying a claim for the 'whiplash' you mention, unless of course the struck vehicle owner has purchased one of your products.....My personal opinion is both of these stories are using a little fear factor to sell a product that is a solution looking for a problem. I'll save my money for my lawyer...I feel he's good enough at what he does to find a way to prove I've been struck from behind, maybe he'll use the bullet vehicle as evidence of impact. Again, this is nothing more than my personal opinion, fwiw.
Rather than highlight just the sections that apply I'm going to quote it all (call me lazy) but if one reads the first story you wrote....and then reads this story they conflicting opinions ie: receiver hitches cause MORE damage to the struck vehicle (the jeep) in the second story receiver hitches prevent damge to the struck vehicle to the point of not being able to tell that the vehicle was struck at all (which is it) therefore denying a claim for the 'whiplash' you mention, unless of course the struck vehicle owner has purchased one of your products.....My personal opinion is both of these stories are using a little fear factor to sell a product that is a solution looking for a problem. I'll save my money for my lawyer...I feel he's good enough at what he does to find a way to prove I've been struck from behind, maybe he'll use the bullet vehicle as evidence of impact. Again, this is nothing more than my personal opinion, fwiw.
Not conflicting at all...a "ball mount" in your receiver hitch will increase the risk of frame damage. The "receiver hitch" all by itself increases the risk of whiplash. Most people use the term "trailer hitch" when referring to a ball mount and use the same term when referring to a receiver hitch. Trailer hitch is a slang term that is used all the time but the proper terminology "in the industry itself" is ball mount and receiver hitch. The term trailer hitch could also mean a 5th wheel type of hitch that's why we use the term receiver hitch in the industry and not trailer hitch. Jeff
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