Do headers make that big a difference?
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Lead Driver
Joined: Jul 2011
Posts: 8,679
Likes: 191
From: On the Edge of the Desert
Do headers make that big a difference?
I've built a pretty stout 351C, but I have never put headers on it due to fitment in the truck. There are no long tube headers out there that fit a cleveland in a 67-72 truck.
I'm now considering having a set made custom.
But, will it be worth it?
I'm running factory manifolds with 2" dual pipes now. If I get headers, I'd build a 2-1/2" Dual system. Glasspacks now and later.
I'm now considering having a set made custom.
But, will it be worth it?
I'm running factory manifolds with 2" dual pipes now. If I get headers, I'd build a 2-1/2" Dual system. Glasspacks now and later.
Elder User
Joined: Nov 2009
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From: Chicago area
Installing long tube headers sized for the state of the engines tune will always improve performance over stock cast iron manifolds. The reduced back pressure will net you better MPG's, how much depends on how you drive your truck and what you use it for. The one thing is don't go with the biggest primary pipe size. For a stock or mildly modified engine the smallest size pipe will net you the best results.
A street 302 does best with 1 1/ 2 inch primaries, one with some mods can go to 1 5/8. A header for a 351 (C or W) will usually start out with 1 5/8 and go up to 2 inch for a performance application.
In your case you may be able to get a set for a 351C installed in another chassis and modify it to fit. It may be as simple as bending a pipe or two or you may have to cut some pipes and replace them with ones with different bends. It will be easier to modify a header then to start from zero, and cheaper too.
A street 302 does best with 1 1/ 2 inch primaries, one with some mods can go to 1 5/8. A header for a 351 (C or W) will usually start out with 1 5/8 and go up to 2 inch for a performance application.
In your case you may be able to get a set for a 351C installed in another chassis and modify it to fit. It may be as simple as bending a pipe or two or you may have to cut some pipes and replace them with ones with different bends. It will be easier to modify a header then to start from zero, and cheaper too.
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Lead Driver
Joined: Jul 2011
Posts: 8,679
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From: On the Edge of the Desert
http://pages.ebay.com/link/?nav=item...d=171565052109
Just found these. They look like they'd fit. They are shaped correctly. I just wonder how tall they actually are.
Just found these. They look like they'd fit. They are shaped correctly. I just wonder how tall they actually are.
Elder User
Joined: Nov 2009
Posts: 666
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From: Chicago area
The taller deck height of that series of engines may drop the collector lower on your truck but if may not be a issue or you may have to cut and weld the primary pipes to bring the collector up tighter to the body/frame. But as you say they should work.
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Lead Driver
Joined: Jul 2011
Posts: 8,679
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From: On the Edge of the Desert
Or there's these that are fitted for the truck, just with 302/351w flanges. Cut them off and weld on 351C flanges...
http://m.summitracing.com/parts/sum-g9032
http://m.summitracing.com/parts/sum-g9032
Fleet Owner
Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 29,941
Likes: 46
From: Drummonds, TN USA
Why cut the headers?
The under truck plumbing is much easier to modify. I mean think about it - the logical next move is to look at the rest of the exhaust system.
Especially if you can weld, the next move from there is to run a set of damned good pipes from there back.
The headers are fine.
If you have a plain jane set of exhaust tubes under the truck, think in terms of better pipes and mufflers. A cross over or an X-pipe, whatever you want to do.
If you had cast iron headers to begin with, the system from there back is ALSO costing you performance.
CUT THE EXHAUST PIPES! Not the header.
The under truck plumbing is much easier to modify. I mean think about it - the logical next move is to look at the rest of the exhaust system.
Especially if you can weld, the next move from there is to run a set of damned good pipes from there back.
The headers are fine.
If you have a plain jane set of exhaust tubes under the truck, think in terms of better pipes and mufflers. A cross over or an X-pipe, whatever you want to do.
If you had cast iron headers to begin with, the system from there back is ALSO costing you performance.
CUT THE EXHAUST PIPES! Not the header.
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Lead Driver
Joined: Jul 2011
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From: On the Edge of the Desert
I need to cut the headers regardless of what's going behind them.
I got a pair of 302 bump-truck headers. I need to cut the flanges off and weld on cleveland style flanges.
Once the headers fit the engine AND fit in the truck, I will build a new 2-1/2" dual setup with 24" glasspacks.
I got a pair of 302 bump-truck headers. I need to cut the flanges off and weld on cleveland style flanges.
Once the headers fit the engine AND fit in the truck, I will build a new 2-1/2" dual setup with 24" glasspacks.
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Lead Driver
Joined: Jul 2011
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From: On the Edge of the Desert
What are you talking about? Do you know what your talking about? 302 headers will not bolt onto Cleveland heads.....
Postmaster
Joined: Mar 2013
Posts: 3,066
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From: Over There
To answer the question, yes they do.
As getting a set for your truck goes I'd likely avoid using Windsor headers. Windsors have small exhaust ports, I'm not saying a good donor to make work isn't out there but it's likely they'll be small. If I was looking for a donor set I'm thinking a set for a 351M/400 in a 77 pickup, and or FE in a 71 F100.
As getting a set for your truck goes I'd likely avoid using Windsor headers. Windsors have small exhaust ports, I'm not saying a good donor to make work isn't out there but it's likely they'll be small. If I was looking for a donor set I'm thinking a set for a 351M/400 in a 77 pickup, and or FE in a 71 F100.
Fleet Owner
Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 29,941
Likes: 46
From: Drummonds, TN USA
As an "M" owner that is likely to plant it in a Ranger 1/4 ton chassis - yeah.
You need to shop around a bit instead of committing yourself to butchering a set of headers that are good for what they were made for.
My next project is still well out "in the wings" but I am going to do a frame up on it - so I'll fit the cab around it after it is done and over with.
I have a 351W in a Ranger 1/4 ton right now, and am planning what to do with another Ranger chassis that I collected
"BLOCK HUGGERS" might be a good direction to look
I have a choice of a 351M or a 351W to install in that (originally) V6 chassis. If I go with the 351W I will have it hogged out to 408
You're talking about going the longest and hardest way around the problem Brother - and I don't envy you that. Think about what your time and effort are worth!
Your talkin' about going one tube at a time and (F)ing with it when you could just go get the right header.
*I apologize about the way it might sound, but it is true. I'm really with you on that, but you are going in the wrong direction. There HAS to be a header that works
~You ain't the first one who ever thought of this modification by a long shot. SOMEBODY makes what you need
You just gotta find it
You need to shop around a bit instead of committing yourself to butchering a set of headers that are good for what they were made for.
My next project is still well out "in the wings" but I am going to do a frame up on it - so I'll fit the cab around it after it is done and over with.
I have a 351W in a Ranger 1/4 ton right now, and am planning what to do with another Ranger chassis that I collected
"BLOCK HUGGERS" might be a good direction to look
I have a choice of a 351M or a 351W to install in that (originally) V6 chassis. If I go with the 351W I will have it hogged out to 408
You're talking about going the longest and hardest way around the problem Brother - and I don't envy you that. Think about what your time and effort are worth!
Your talkin' about going one tube at a time and (F)ing with it when you could just go get the right header.
*I apologize about the way it might sound, but it is true. I'm really with you on that, but you are going in the wrong direction. There HAS to be a header that works
~You ain't the first one who ever thought of this modification by a long shot. SOMEBODY makes what you need
You just gotta find it
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Lead Driver
Joined: Jul 2011
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From: On the Edge of the Desert
Sanderson makes shorty headers that would work. But they are $$$ and they're shorties....
400/351M dentside headers would probably fit and work without modification, but I'm worried they would hang too low. I won't know until I find a set to look at and measure.
302 headers for a 68-72 will fit the truck obviously, just not the engine. But the windsor and cleveland engines have the same port spacing. As for the "smaller ports/Tubes" this is desirable for me. I truck with this truck, so a small primary tube will help on the low end. I just have to cut the 302 flanges off, and fit the cleveland flanges. Not particularly easy, but not too difficult either. Plus, I have a set already.
Oh well, I'm not in a hurry to do this.
400/351M dentside headers would probably fit and work without modification, but I'm worried they would hang too low. I won't know until I find a set to look at and measure.
302 headers for a 68-72 will fit the truck obviously, just not the engine. But the windsor and cleveland engines have the same port spacing. As for the "smaller ports/Tubes" this is desirable for me. I truck with this truck, so a small primary tube will help on the low end. I just have to cut the 302 flanges off, and fit the cleveland flanges. Not particularly easy, but not too difficult either. Plus, I have a set already.
Oh well, I'm not in a hurry to do this.
Fleet Owner
Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 29,941
Likes: 46
From: Drummonds, TN USA
I'll leave you with three notions:
1) What is your time and effort worth in dollars and cents? (I valuate mine at $50 per hour)
2) If you value your work low enough it may be worth it (assuming you have nothing else to do)
3) If the total of your time and workmanship is higher than the price of a finished product - just get it
NOTE: ANYTHING that "DOES NOT FIT THE ENGINE" is a stupid choice, and should not be considered at all
Get your priorities in order
1) What is your time and effort worth in dollars and cents? (I valuate mine at $50 per hour)
2) If you value your work low enough it may be worth it (assuming you have nothing else to do)
3) If the total of your time and workmanship is higher than the price of a finished product - just get it
NOTE: ANYTHING that "DOES NOT FIT THE ENGINE" is a stupid choice, and should not be considered at all
Get your priorities in order