Vapor lock - fuel boiling in carb
#1
09-27-2014, 04:37 AM
Vapor lock - fuel boiling in carb
1976 with 390 and 4bbl Holley 600 cfm on stock cast iron manifold - with a 1 " phenol (sp?) heat insulating spacer between carb and manifold.
Stalls at idle when hot. Will re-start if hold pedal to floor and crank a while, then stumbles, blows black smoke until clears itself. Outside temp has to be mid 80s or hotter for this. I know it's vapor lock, because I can hear the fuel boiling in both primary and secondary float bowls. I listen with a section of garden hose and the fuel at carb is boiling. When I listen at the in line filter and the metal fuel pressure regulator that are n line before the carb, I don't hear anything boiling there, so I'm guessing too much heat is happening at the carb itself.
New to me tuck a few months ago. Problem seemed to start with the Holley - it replaced a 750 cfm Edelbrock that had terrible gas mileage and ran rich (black smoke and tail pipe and plugs). But the Edlebrock didn't stall at idle
Replaced thermostat - 195 degree. Installed fuel pressure regulator - set at 4 lbs. (earlier theory was that it flooded because too much pump pressure was forcing open needle valves in float) Replaced in line filter. Routed hoses from pump up off block and intake manifold. Tank has good open venting. Original exhaust manifolds and gas line routing from tank to pump.
Hose from pump to carb comes up front of block between the power steering bracket. Then the metal pressure regulator then metal in line filter.
The plastic spacer replaced the original Ford aluminum spacer that routed coolant through it. I've seen diagrams showing heater hose routed with T fittings to set up a full time/always on loop of coolant through that aluminum spacer, with a on/off valve after the "T" that opens and closes to let coolant into the heater core. My heater hoses were not routed that way. They circulated coolant through the spacer only when heat was on (coolant running through heater core.
Does anyone think that returning to the Ford spacer and setting up the heater hoses so there's a continuous, always on coolant flow to the carb spacer would keep the carb cool and prevent fuel from boiling in the carb?
Any other suggestions? I'm stuck.
Stalls at idle when hot. Will re-start if hold pedal to floor and crank a while, then stumbles, blows black smoke until clears itself. Outside temp has to be mid 80s or hotter for this. I know it's vapor lock, because I can hear the fuel boiling in both primary and secondary float bowls. I listen with a section of garden hose and the fuel at carb is boiling. When I listen at the in line filter and the metal fuel pressure regulator that are n line before the carb, I don't hear anything boiling there, so I'm guessing too much heat is happening at the carb itself.
New to me tuck a few months ago. Problem seemed to start with the Holley - it replaced a 750 cfm Edelbrock that had terrible gas mileage and ran rich (black smoke and tail pipe and plugs). But the Edlebrock didn't stall at idle
Replaced thermostat - 195 degree. Installed fuel pressure regulator - set at 4 lbs. (earlier theory was that it flooded because too much pump pressure was forcing open needle valves in float) Replaced in line filter. Routed hoses from pump up off block and intake manifold. Tank has good open venting. Original exhaust manifolds and gas line routing from tank to pump.
Hose from pump to carb comes up front of block between the power steering bracket. Then the metal pressure regulator then metal in line filter.
The plastic spacer replaced the original Ford aluminum spacer that routed coolant through it. I've seen diagrams showing heater hose routed with T fittings to set up a full time/always on loop of coolant through that aluminum spacer, with a on/off valve after the "T" that opens and closes to let coolant into the heater core. My heater hoses were not routed that way. They circulated coolant through the spacer only when heat was on (coolant running through heater core.
Does anyone think that returning to the Ford spacer and setting up the heater hoses so there's a continuous, always on coolant flow to the carb spacer would keep the carb cool and prevent fuel from boiling in the carb?
Any other suggestions? I'm stuck.
#2
09-27-2014, 06:37 AM
#3
09-27-2014, 07:13 AM
It does sound like fuel boiling in carb. Since it re-starts and runs after stalling you are getting fuel flow through the pump and lines so it is in the carb.
In theory the insulating spacer should help but isn't. How about float level? If the fuel in the bowls is too high it could contribute to this problem.
In theory the insulating spacer should help but isn't. How about float level? If the fuel in the bowls is too high it could contribute to this problem.
#4
09-27-2014, 09:56 AM
Problems I see
1) The holley carb with it's float bowl position are prone to heat soak
2) The oem cast iron intake with the cross flow exhaust gases is a huge slow cooling
heat sink
3) No EGR means the motor will run hotter
4) to much timing advance or carb to lean condition and the motor will run hotter
Solutions
1) use a heat shield and phenolic spacer which you have
2) switch to a dual plane aluminum intake with cross flow for Colorado Winters .. It
will dissipate the heat quicker than the OEM cast intake
3) You could run a fuel return to the tank so the carb is getting a constant source of
cool fuel ..
4) Run an EGR plate and valve
5) Adjust timing and lean/rich on the carb to make sure you are running adjustments for a cooler running motor
verses performance .. There's a fine line there
6) borrow or get an infrared heat gun so you can measure if changes are improving
the situation ..
I would start with the things that are the least expensive and work your way up noting the change until the problem is gone for good .. Also Blue and Whites suggestion is something you need to verify before getting started ..
A side note: The new ethanol fuels have a lower boiling point then the old that is why folks are having more frequent issues with this problem ..
Post back with any questions or progress ..
1) The holley carb with it's float bowl position are prone to heat soak
2) The oem cast iron intake with the cross flow exhaust gases is a huge slow cooling
heat sink
3) No EGR means the motor will run hotter
4) to much timing advance or carb to lean condition and the motor will run hotter
Solutions
1) use a heat shield and phenolic spacer which you have
2) switch to a dual plane aluminum intake with cross flow for Colorado Winters .. It
will dissipate the heat quicker than the OEM cast intake
3) You could run a fuel return to the tank so the carb is getting a constant source of
cool fuel ..
4) Run an EGR plate and valve
5) Adjust timing and lean/rich on the carb to make sure you are running adjustments for a cooler running motor
verses performance .. There's a fine line there
6) borrow or get an infrared heat gun so you can measure if changes are improving
the situation ..
I would start with the things that are the least expensive and work your way up noting the change until the problem is gone for good .. Also Blue and Whites suggestion is something you need to verify before getting started ..
A side note: The new ethanol fuels have a lower boiling point then the old that is why folks are having more frequent issues with this problem ..
Post back with any questions or progress ..
#5
09-27-2014, 12:38 PM
[QUOTE=redroad;14697294]Problems I see
1) The holley carb with it's float bowl position are prone to heat soak
2) The oem cast iron intake with the cross flow exhaust gases is a huge slow cooling
heat sink
3) No EGR means the motor will run hotter
4) to much timing advance or carb to lean condition and the motor will run hotter
Solutions
1) use a heat shield and phenolic spacer which you have
2) switch to a dual plane aluminum intake with cross flow for Colorado Winters .. It
will dissipate the heat quicker than the OEM cast intake
3) You could run a fuel return to the tank so the carb is getting a constant source of
cool fuel ..
4) Run an EGR plate and valve
5) Adjust timing and lean/rich on the carb to make sure you are running adjustments for a cooler running motor
verses performance .. There's a fine line there
6) borrow or get an infrared heat gun so you can measure if changes are improving the situation ..
I would start with the things that are the least expensive and work your way up noting the change until the problem is gone for good .. Also Blue and Whites suggestion is something you need to verify before getting started ..
Thank you very much for all replies.
More info:
1) I started with adjusting the float so it closed sooner. Then I added the pressure regulator in case too much pressure was forcing the needle open.
2) I don't think the motor itself is running extra hot. Timing has been carefully set to start at 12 degrees and advance to 35. I replaced the advance springs and vacuum unit on distributor. It has new Pertronix electronic ignition and coil. Also, replaced freeze plugs and cleaned out the block water jackets while there. New 195 degree thermostat is what Car Quest said was stock - But I always thought 180 was standard temp.
Also, I'm outside Denver. It came with 65 Main jets. I put in 63. Holley tech said put in 62. So, I thinking it's not running too lean ....
Questions ...
1) What about a 180 degree thermo?? That's cheap and easy. I doubt it will solve it, but might help. I'll start there.
2) What is the exhaust cross flow in the stock intake you're referring to? Does the cast Iron intake have a passage that moves exhaust gasses through it? A technician at Holey said the cast iron intakes get real hot.
3) Is the heat shield available from Holley? The holley float bowls are front and rear, and stick out of the carb. The Edlebrock (750 CFM) didn't do this vapor/fuel boiling thing and it's float bowls were on either side and didn't hang out over the manifold. The Holley is smooth and powerful when it's cool ..... but what about trying with a 600 CFM Edlebrock?
4) How do you set up a fuel return? Seems to me that the fuel is boiling in the float bowl, so once it's in there, it can't return to the tank.
5) EGR .... Uh, I can't remember what that's about. A small tube from exhaust back into intake??? More info about this motor:: It is a 390 out of a 65 Galaxie. 10.1:1 compression 300 HP I run 91 octane. The pollution stuff from the 76 truck (canisters and ??) were removed by previous owner when the 65 motor went in. Only a PCV remains -and I've replaced that and the rubber around it and the valve cover cap it goes into - to be sure no vacuum leak there. The gas tank has a tube that runs along passenger side frame and used to go to coffee can-like canister (I think). That tube is open and should vent the tank plenty.
SUmmary: I'm seeing tow aspect to it - 1) the carb body/float bowl bodies get too hot for ethanol modern gas. 2) Maybe the gas is heating a bit on the way to carb also. But it's boiling in the carb, not in the lines. I think stone cold fuel delivered to the carb would still boil in the carb if I sit at idle for too long, but maybe cooling the fuel as much as possible on it's way to the carb would help..
I'm thinking I should try in this order -
1) switch to 180 thermostat
2) get a heat shield (from Holley?)
3) replace manifold with the aluminum one. (WHere would I source that?)
IF it's still not cool enough, then
a) consider Edelbrock or another make of carb??
b) maybe re-route the entire fuel line to far, far away from every part of the engine, and wrap them with insulation.
c) figure out some fuel return system
d) consider the in line cooler
e) I dunno ....
1) The holley carb with it's float bowl position are prone to heat soak
2) The oem cast iron intake with the cross flow exhaust gases is a huge slow cooling
heat sink
3) No EGR means the motor will run hotter
4) to much timing advance or carb to lean condition and the motor will run hotter
Solutions
1) use a heat shield and phenolic spacer which you have
2) switch to a dual plane aluminum intake with cross flow for Colorado Winters .. It
will dissipate the heat quicker than the OEM cast intake
3) You could run a fuel return to the tank so the carb is getting a constant source of
cool fuel ..
4) Run an EGR plate and valve
5) Adjust timing and lean/rich on the carb to make sure you are running adjustments for a cooler running motor
verses performance .. There's a fine line there
6) borrow or get an infrared heat gun so you can measure if changes are improving the situation ..
I would start with the things that are the least expensive and work your way up noting the change until the problem is gone for good .. Also Blue and Whites suggestion is something you need to verify before getting started ..
Thank you very much for all replies.
More info:
1) I started with adjusting the float so it closed sooner. Then I added the pressure regulator in case too much pressure was forcing the needle open.
2) I don't think the motor itself is running extra hot. Timing has been carefully set to start at 12 degrees and advance to 35. I replaced the advance springs and vacuum unit on distributor. It has new Pertronix electronic ignition and coil. Also, replaced freeze plugs and cleaned out the block water jackets while there. New 195 degree thermostat is what Car Quest said was stock - But I always thought 180 was standard temp.
Also, I'm outside Denver. It came with 65 Main jets. I put in 63. Holley tech said put in 62. So, I thinking it's not running too lean ....
Questions ...
1) What about a 180 degree thermo?? That's cheap and easy. I doubt it will solve it, but might help. I'll start there.
2) What is the exhaust cross flow in the stock intake you're referring to? Does the cast Iron intake have a passage that moves exhaust gasses through it? A technician at Holey said the cast iron intakes get real hot.
3) Is the heat shield available from Holley? The holley float bowls are front and rear, and stick out of the carb. The Edlebrock (750 CFM) didn't do this vapor/fuel boiling thing and it's float bowls were on either side and didn't hang out over the manifold. The Holley is smooth and powerful when it's cool ..... but what about trying with a 600 CFM Edlebrock?
4) How do you set up a fuel return? Seems to me that the fuel is boiling in the float bowl, so once it's in there, it can't return to the tank.
5) EGR .... Uh, I can't remember what that's about. A small tube from exhaust back into intake??? More info about this motor:: It is a 390 out of a 65 Galaxie. 10.1:1 compression 300 HP I run 91 octane. The pollution stuff from the 76 truck (canisters and ??) were removed by previous owner when the 65 motor went in. Only a PCV remains -and I've replaced that and the rubber around it and the valve cover cap it goes into - to be sure no vacuum leak there. The gas tank has a tube that runs along passenger side frame and used to go to coffee can-like canister (I think). That tube is open and should vent the tank plenty.
SUmmary: I'm seeing tow aspect to it - 1) the carb body/float bowl bodies get too hot for ethanol modern gas. 2) Maybe the gas is heating a bit on the way to carb also. But it's boiling in the carb, not in the lines. I think stone cold fuel delivered to the carb would still boil in the carb if I sit at idle for too long, but maybe cooling the fuel as much as possible on it's way to the carb would help..
I'm thinking I should try in this order -
1) switch to 180 thermostat
2) get a heat shield (from Holley?)
3) replace manifold with the aluminum one. (WHere would I source that?)
IF it's still not cool enough, then
a) consider Edelbrock or another make of carb??
b) maybe re-route the entire fuel line to far, far away from every part of the engine, and wrap them with insulation.
c) figure out some fuel return system
d) consider the in line cooler
e) I dunno ....
#6
09-27-2014, 01:15 PM
Info needed
1) intake pattern spread bore ? Square ? best to take pic with carb off .. Measure main and secondary openings for best heat shield fit .. The one I listed is for square bore 4160 4150 .. If you have an original 65 FE intake then it should be square bore in which case the heat shield should work with maybe minor alterations .. Holley 108-70 Holley Under Carburetor Heat Shield - Free Shipping on All Orders @ JEGS
2) What model holley?
It's safe to say there were no egr provisions on a 65 motor and intake ..
The exhaust crossover is there to heat the carb to prevent icing and help engine warm up.
On your evap line if the canister is gone then a better way would be to cap the line and run a vented gas gap to assure there is enough ventilation for the tank if your not going to run the system ..
Routing the fuel line delivery away from engine heat can only help .. Although you may not be experiencing boiling fuel while it's running the hotter the fuel the quicker it will reach boiling temps when shut down ..
The reason the edelbrock is less prone to heat soak is because of the bowl locations .. Although they are not immune to heat soak .. That being said if you ran the edlebrock successfully without heat soak then you should be close enough to solving the issue with the holley where rerouting fuel line and a heat shield should solve the issue the holley currently has ..
Post back with any questions or progress ..
1) intake pattern spread bore ? Square ? best to take pic with carb off .. Measure main and secondary openings for best heat shield fit .. The one I listed is for square bore 4160 4150 .. If you have an original 65 FE intake then it should be square bore in which case the heat shield should work with maybe minor alterations .. Holley 108-70 Holley Under Carburetor Heat Shield - Free Shipping on All Orders @ JEGS
2) What model holley?
It's safe to say there were no egr provisions on a 65 motor and intake ..
The exhaust crossover is there to heat the carb to prevent icing and help engine warm up.
On your evap line if the canister is gone then a better way would be to cap the line and run a vented gas gap to assure there is enough ventilation for the tank if your not going to run the system ..
Routing the fuel line delivery away from engine heat can only help .. Although you may not be experiencing boiling fuel while it's running the hotter the fuel the quicker it will reach boiling temps when shut down ..
The reason the edelbrock is less prone to heat soak is because of the bowl locations .. Although they are not immune to heat soak .. That being said if you ran the edlebrock successfully without heat soak then you should be close enough to solving the issue with the holley where rerouting fuel line and a heat shield should solve the issue the holley currently has ..
Post back with any questions or progress ..
#7
09-27-2014, 03:09 PM
Info needed
1) intake pattern spread bore ? Square ? best to take pic with carb off .. Measure main and secondary openings for best heat shield fit .. The one I listed is for square bore 4160 4150 .. If you have an original 65 FE intake then it should be square bore in which case the heat shield should work with maybe minor alterations .. Holley 108-70 Holley Under Carburetor Heat Shield - Free Shipping on All Orders @ JEGS
2) What model holley?
It's safe to say there were no egr provisions on a 65 motor and intake ..
The exhaust crossover is there to heat the carb to prevent icing and help engine warm up.
On your evap line if the canister is gone then a better way would be to cap the line and run a vented gas gap to assure there is enough ventilation for the tank if your not going to run the system ..
Routing the fuel line delivery away from engine heat can only help .. Although you may not be experiencing boiling fuel while it's running the hotter the fuel the quicker it will reach boiling temps when shut down ..
The reason the edelbrock is less prone to heat soak is because of the bowl locations .. Although they are not immune to heat soak .. That being said if you ran the edlebrock successfully without heat soak then you should be close enough to solving the issue with the holley where rerouting fuel line and a heat shield should solve the issue the holley currently has ..
Post back with any questions or progress ..
1) intake pattern spread bore ? Square ? best to take pic with carb off .. Measure main and secondary openings for best heat shield fit .. The one I listed is for square bore 4160 4150 .. If you have an original 65 FE intake then it should be square bore in which case the heat shield should work with maybe minor alterations .. Holley 108-70 Holley Under Carburetor Heat Shield - Free Shipping on All Orders @ JEGS
2) What model holley?
It's safe to say there were no egr provisions on a 65 motor and intake ..
The exhaust crossover is there to heat the carb to prevent icing and help engine warm up.
On your evap line if the canister is gone then a better way would be to cap the line and run a vented gas gap to assure there is enough ventilation for the tank if your not going to run the system ..
Routing the fuel line delivery away from engine heat can only help .. Although you may not be experiencing boiling fuel while it's running the hotter the fuel the quicker it will reach boiling temps when shut down ..
The reason the edelbrock is less prone to heat soak is because of the bowl locations .. Although they are not immune to heat soak .. That being said if you ran the edlebrock successfully without heat soak then you should be close enough to solving the issue with the holley where rerouting fuel line and a heat shield should solve the issue the holley currently has ..
Post back with any questions or progress ..
The Holley is an 1850 -s. Reman from National Carburetors in FL. Square bore. Original 1965 FE manifold, for sure. I think the 108-70 heat shield is the right one - and O'Reilly's parts has one in warehouse! I'll have it in 3 hours.
Am getting a vented cap also. With that, installed, I'm thinking I should just seal off the tube that used to connect the evap canister to the tank? Right now that tube ends open on top of the frame just below the alternator. I suppose that might not be the best spot for fumes ....
Your observations about re-routing the fuel lines to get the fuel as cool as possible when it gets to the carb, and about the Edelbrock all make good sense to me. I'll get some heat shielding tubing or tape to put over the fuel hoses when I re-route them. O'Reilly's says they've got a few different types.
Maybe foolish or me, but I'm cautiously optimistic that these changes will do the trick. We shall see. If not, then maybe an in-line fuel cooler/mini-radiator, and/or aluminum manifold, or even revert to an Edlelbrock. Thank you again. I'll let you know how it goes.
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#8
09-27-2014, 04:15 PM
In my 79 F250 with a 400M I had the same issue. I added an Edelbrock electric fuel pump mounted on the inside of the driver's side frame rail and it cured the problem. Theoretically, the higher pressure fuel would correspond to a higher temperature boiling point. Not sure if that's why it worked, but it did work in my application.
I live in Phoenix so heat is an issue for sure. Still thinking of cutting in some louvered vents into my hood to help get the heat out from under the hood.
I live in Phoenix so heat is an issue for sure. Still thinking of cutting in some louvered vents into my hood to help get the heat out from under the hood.
#9
09-27-2014, 06:42 PM
In my 79 F250 with a 400M I had the same issue. I added an Edelbrock electric fuel pump mounted on the inside of the driver's side frame rail and it cured the problem. Theoretically, the higher pressure fuel would correspond to a higher temperature boiling point. Not sure if that's why it worked, but it did work in my application.
I live in Phoenix so heat is an issue for sure. Still thinking of cutting in some louvered vents into my hood to help get the heat out from under the hood.
I live in Phoenix so heat is an issue for sure. Still thinking of cutting in some louvered vents into my hood to help get the heat out from under the hood.
I'll post results as I take different steps.
Super thank you to all who've responded so quickly and with really helpful info.
#10
09-28-2014, 10:26 AM
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#11
09-28-2014, 12:43 PM
If the Holley heat shield (part 108-70) on top of the 1" Phenolic spacer, with fuel lines wrapped in insulation and run well away from the motor, and changing the thermo from 195 to 180 doesn't do it, I think next steps would be to swap out the stock iron manifold for an aluminum dual plane manifold and after that go with an aluminum radiator. Or maybe punt on the Holley and go with an 600 CFM Edlebrock.
I will post results at each step.
#12
09-28-2014, 03:38 PM
Same as Weez440 on the radiator deal for me. I put a BeCool aluminum radiator with dual electric fans in. That definitely helps it run cooler, but that was two years after I did the electric fuel pump. I'm still thinking seriously of cutting in some hood vents like the ones from RunCool at Hood Louvers | RunCool | Hood Vents For Your Vehicle - | The Most Experienced Hood Louver Company In The World! The Most Cost-Saving Way To Cool Hot Engines!Hood Louvers | RunCool | Hood Vents For Your Vehicle -. I see them on border patrol rigs down here and have to think that would help a ton with overall underhood heat dissipation.
#13
09-28-2014, 09:42 PM
Same as Weez440 on the radiator deal for me. I put a BeCool aluminum radiator with dual electric fans in. That definitely helps it run cooler, but that was two years after I did the electric fuel pump. I'm still thinking seriously of cutting in some hood vents like the ones from RunCool at Hood Louvers | RunCool | Hood Vents For Your Vehicle - | The Most Experienced Hood Louver Company In The World! The Most Cost-Saving Way To Cool Hot Engines!Hood Louvers | RunCool | Hood Vents For Your Vehicle -. I see them on border patrol rigs down here and have to think that would help a ton with overall underhood heat dissipation.
I put on the heat shield from Holley and it was 80 degrees today - and it ran better. Just as I thought I was done with this puzzle, I started it in a parking lot and let it idle - and after about 3 minutes, it started faltering and flooding.
Tomorrow it gets the 180 thermostat and re-routed fuel lines with heat shielding wrap. I'm trying to go step by step toward cooling the fuel (next would be the electronic pump located away from the engine), and at some point, that'll start to include cooling the engine (aluminum radiator and/or aluminum intake) and engine compartment itself (Louvers sound like the ticket for that).
And in the back of my mind is this nagging feeling that an Edelbrock, with it's different layout of float bowls, might not have this problem at all. I don't really think the engine itself is that hot. Today after it acted up, I could put my hand on the valve covers. That doesn't seem like an excessively hot engine to me. SO I start to wonder if it's just the Holley lay out - or even if there's something screwed up about this particular Holley I got from National carburetors in FLA. Not concluding that yet, but the 750 CFM Edlebrock that the Holley replaced guzzled fuel and ran rich, but idled fine.
Maybe tomorrow, I'll swap in the Edlebrock, and see if it idles okay. If it does, then maybe the conclusion would be that something is wrong with this particular carburetor.
#14
09-28-2014, 10:44 PM
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I would try a cooler thermostat 185 deg. 4 core radiator possibly, try a little less advance in the timing and a stock-like carb. just re jet it to your needs. These trucks were among the most reliable fleet units ever, here in northern Canada it didn't matter if it was 105 deg. or -45 they were bullet proof.
#15
09-29-2014, 08:48 AM
The boiling point of anything is going to decrease as you rise in elevation so in the mile high city your more suspect then at sea level .. The carb that national set up for you hopefully took into consideration the elev. that it would be run .. Read on the effects elevation has on a carbureted motor..
The heat rise when the vehicle is at idle in park is brought on by the lower rpm of the fan and water pump .. The lower volume of coolant moving through a less effective cooling system will tax even the best cooling system let alone one that is aged .. On my 460 hauler I added an electric fan .. See here under electric fan for options ..
This will help you greatly to nail down your progress and take out some of the guessing ..
The heat rise when the vehicle is at idle in park is brought on by the lower rpm of the fan and water pump .. The lower volume of coolant moving through a less effective cooling system will tax even the best cooling system let alone one that is aged .. On my 460 hauler I added an electric fan .. See here under electric fan for options ..
This will help you greatly to nail down your progress and take out some of the guessing ..
