Intermittent problem
Hotshot
Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 10,253
Likes: 7,684
From: Chino Valley, Arizona
^^^^ +1; we keep a spare IDM+PCM wrapped in foil (EMP-proof?), then bubble-wrap, in a box in whichever PSD we're driving.
As for the flash, if the truck has ever been to a Ford dealer service department in its life, it has most likely been flashed to a level where either the Interceptor or AE (or a Snap-On brick) will communicate with it. By this time in history, it's exceedingly rare to find a truck that has not been flashed. Maybe there's an FTE member in your area with one of these products who would be willing to try it out on your truck.
Another possibility - do you know anyone with a generic OBD-II device that's a little more sophisticated than that CReader? Something like an Actron or even Harbor Freight scanner, or a "Scangauge II"? These devices will NOT do the "Ford Enhanced" protocol, which allows you to obtain trouble codes or do diagnostic tests like the buzz and contribution tests. Nor will they allow you to view specific sensor data like the ICP, pedal position, etc. The most they will show you is RPM and speed. But, I *THINK* that if they show you that much, that suggests that the truck HAS been flashed.
As for the flash, if the truck has ever been to a Ford dealer service department in its life, it has most likely been flashed to a level where either the Interceptor or AE (or a Snap-On brick) will communicate with it. By this time in history, it's exceedingly rare to find a truck that has not been flashed. Maybe there's an FTE member in your area with one of these products who would be willing to try it out on your truck.
Another possibility - do you know anyone with a generic OBD-II device that's a little more sophisticated than that CReader? Something like an Actron or even Harbor Freight scanner, or a "Scangauge II"? These devices will NOT do the "Ford Enhanced" protocol, which allows you to obtain trouble codes or do diagnostic tests like the buzz and contribution tests. Nor will they allow you to view specific sensor data like the ICP, pedal position, etc. The most they will show you is RPM and speed. But, I *THINK* that if they show you that much, that suggests that the truck HAS been flashed.
Post Fiend
Joined: Dec 2010
Posts: 10,121
Likes: 3
From: Orrville, Ohio
Greg, It was good to meet you this weekend. That is a very clean truck indeed that you have there. I hope I didn't hold you all up too long.
I think the "classic caps" statement that Aaron (fordman67) made was meant to say "classic CPS", as in the problem you describe sounds to him like the classic symptoms of a bad CPS. That's still a possibility as well.
For those who are speculating, I tried to get Torque to connect to the truck to pull live data with no success, though I was able to pull trouble codes from it. I am thinking that it may never have been flashed. Greg was able to pull codes with a Matco reader that he borrowed from someone else though and that was showing live data as well. Hard to say what the deal is there. It may take the assistance of a good Ford dealer to tell what version calibration the PCM in that truck is running. If you need to be referred to a local dealer that is DEFINITELY familiar with the PSDs I can refer you to one. There is a small dealer near me that has kind of developed into a niche for selling these 7.3s and I am told their head tech is very good on the PSD. I can't say for sure whether they can flash the PCM but it would be worth a call.
Just for reference, here is a link to the Riffraff ICP ($137):
Injection Control Pressure ICP Sensor 94-96 - Riffraff Diesel Performance
and IPR ($178):
IPR Injection Pressure Regulator W/Edge Filter 1994.5-1995.5 - Riffraff Diesel Performance
Once again, these are OEM parts so you need not worry about them getting you "only to the desert"!
Again, the offer stands that if you're not comfortable tackling this yourself, feel free to bring the truck by my place and I"ll put those parts on for you.
I think the "classic caps" statement that Aaron (fordman67) made was meant to say "classic CPS", as in the problem you describe sounds to him like the classic symptoms of a bad CPS. That's still a possibility as well.
For those who are speculating, I tried to get Torque to connect to the truck to pull live data with no success, though I was able to pull trouble codes from it. I am thinking that it may never have been flashed. Greg was able to pull codes with a Matco reader that he borrowed from someone else though and that was showing live data as well. Hard to say what the deal is there. It may take the assistance of a good Ford dealer to tell what version calibration the PCM in that truck is running. If you need to be referred to a local dealer that is DEFINITELY familiar with the PSDs I can refer you to one. There is a small dealer near me that has kind of developed into a niche for selling these 7.3s and I am told their head tech is very good on the PSD. I can't say for sure whether they can flash the PCM but it would be worth a call.
Just for reference, here is a link to the Riffraff ICP ($137):
Injection Control Pressure ICP Sensor 94-96 - Riffraff Diesel Performance
and IPR ($178):
IPR Injection Pressure Regulator W/Edge Filter 1994.5-1995.5 - Riffraff Diesel Performance
Once again, these are OEM parts so you need not worry about them getting you "only to the desert"!
Again, the offer stands that if you're not comfortable tackling this yourself, feel free to bring the truck by my place and I"ll put those parts on for you.
Thread Starter
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Junior User
Joined: Jul 2006
Posts: 62
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Thank you again, for taking the time to help diagnose the truck!
The Matco unit that seemed to work on the truck, consisted of the following:
* Matco Determinator Scan System 4.0
* 1993 Domestic Pathfinder II Cartridge
* OBDII smart cable OTC 3421-88
* 8421-88 cable
This unit read current codes.
- P0476 Exhaust pressure control valve performance
- P0603 Internal control module KAM malfunction (probably from when I disconnected the battery cables, the night of the problem)
- P1280 Integrated control panel circuit out of range, low
It performed a KOEO Self Test.
- P0267 Injector circuit low cylinder 3
(Performed this test a 2nd time, after the engine was warmer, and it passed this parameter.)
- P0476 Exhaust pressure control valve performance
It performed a KOEO Injector Buzz Self Test.
-P0267 Injector circuit low cylinder 3
It seemed to time out on the KOEO Output State Self Test.
It seemed to time out on the KOER Glow Plug Test.
It performed a KOER Cylinder Contribution Self Test.
- P0266 Cylinder 2 contribution or balance malfunction
After doing the above, the engine was turned off, and the codes were cleared.
P0476 Exhaust.... showed up again.
Cleared the codes again.
P1111 System pass - 49 state appeared
Turned engine on, and P0476 appeared again.
Went through the process one more time, of clearing the codes, until P1111 showed up again, and left the codes alone at this point.
Went to the feature that allowed monitoring, in real time, of engine parameters. Read many values, but only recorded a few.
- Injector control pressure - 590 psi at idle, duty cycle 11%
Exhaust back pressure absolute
30.97 psi off
31.62 at 600 rpm
32.80 at 1500 rpm
33.54 at 2000 rpm
The Matco unit that seemed to work on the truck, consisted of the following:
* Matco Determinator Scan System 4.0
* 1993 Domestic Pathfinder II Cartridge
* OBDII smart cable OTC 3421-88
* 8421-88 cable
This unit read current codes.
- P0476 Exhaust pressure control valve performance
- P0603 Internal control module KAM malfunction (probably from when I disconnected the battery cables, the night of the problem)
- P1280 Integrated control panel circuit out of range, low
It performed a KOEO Self Test.
- P0267 Injector circuit low cylinder 3
(Performed this test a 2nd time, after the engine was warmer, and it passed this parameter.)
- P0476 Exhaust pressure control valve performance
It performed a KOEO Injector Buzz Self Test.
-P0267 Injector circuit low cylinder 3
It seemed to time out on the KOEO Output State Self Test.
It seemed to time out on the KOER Glow Plug Test.
It performed a KOER Cylinder Contribution Self Test.
- P0266 Cylinder 2 contribution or balance malfunction
After doing the above, the engine was turned off, and the codes were cleared.
P0476 Exhaust.... showed up again.
Cleared the codes again.
P1111 System pass - 49 state appeared
Turned engine on, and P0476 appeared again.
Went through the process one more time, of clearing the codes, until P1111 showed up again, and left the codes alone at this point.
Went to the feature that allowed monitoring, in real time, of engine parameters. Read many values, but only recorded a few.
- Injector control pressure - 590 psi at idle, duty cycle 11%
Exhaust back pressure absolute
30.97 psi off
31.62 at 600 rpm
32.80 at 1500 rpm
33.54 at 2000 rpm
Thread Starter
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Junior User
Joined: Jul 2006
Posts: 62
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Didn't want to make the above post too long, so here is what was found out about the IPR, when ordering:
Riffraff indicates that a 1994.5-1995 uses a 2c3z9c968ba IPR with edge filter.
Alliant Power, page 8 in the 2014 Alliant Power 2014 Application Guide, agrees with Riffraff, but also spells out the ESN range of 0 - 187,099. Mine is 119,xxx.
The 2011 Ford Diesel Sales Reference Manual says that the 2c3z9c968-ba is for a 1996-1998.5, ESN 187,100 - 661,495 engine.
The same Ford manual says that the correct number is F81z9c968-ab for a 1994 - 1996, ESN 501 - 187,099.
The F81z9c968-ab was confirmed with a visit to the Ford dealer.
So, two sources indicate one part number is correct, and Ford indicates that another part number is correct. I realize that the only difference is in an edge filter, but I like to do things as correctly as possible, especially in a world in which I am new to (diesels).
They all agreed on the ICP.
Riffraff indicates that a 1994.5-1995 uses a 2c3z9c968ba IPR with edge filter.
Alliant Power, page 8 in the 2014 Alliant Power 2014 Application Guide, agrees with Riffraff, but also spells out the ESN range of 0 - 187,099. Mine is 119,xxx.
The 2011 Ford Diesel Sales Reference Manual says that the 2c3z9c968-ba is for a 1996-1998.5, ESN 187,100 - 661,495 engine.
The same Ford manual says that the correct number is F81z9c968-ab for a 1994 - 1996, ESN 501 - 187,099.
The F81z9c968-ab was confirmed with a visit to the Ford dealer.
So, two sources indicate one part number is correct, and Ford indicates that another part number is correct. I realize that the only difference is in an edge filter, but I like to do things as correctly as possible, especially in a world in which I am new to (diesels).
They all agreed on the ICP.
Thread Starter
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Junior User
Joined: Jul 2006
Posts: 62
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Lastly, does anybody have the above mentioned Matco unit (or equivalent unit, that they are sure will work) that they would like to sell? I would like to find something to take with me on a long distance trip next week.
Thank you again, Nate, for your time and help!
Thank you again, Nate, for your time and help!
Post Fiend
Joined: Dec 2010
Posts: 10,121
Likes: 3
From: Orrville, Ohio
Not a problem Greg. I was glad to do what I could to help. Sorry I wasn't able to help more.
I would tend to go with Riffraff's recommendation and get the one they list for your truck. Either way the break occurs at ESN 187,099 and yours is before that so you need the early IPR. It sounds like the debate is whether the early IPR is the one with the edge filter (BA) or the one without (AB).
Can anyone verify for 100% sure what P/N the early IPR needs to be?
I would tend to go with Riffraff's recommendation and get the one they list for your truck. Either way the break occurs at ESN 187,099 and yours is before that so you need the early IPR. It sounds like the debate is whether the early IPR is the one with the edge filter (BA) or the one without (AB).
Can anyone verify for 100% sure what P/N the early IPR needs to be?
Post Fiend
Joined: Dec 2010
Posts: 10,121
Likes: 3
From: Orrville, Ohio
Guzzle says IPR WITH the edge filter for the early build 7.3s and I would trust him.
https://www.ford-trucks.com/forums/7...placement.html
Post number 8.
Everything I can find says that the Edge filter IS REQUIRED on the early build trucks like yours. The part number is the only thing that remains a mystery, but if an experienced vendor sells you one that has an edge filter on it, then I wouldn't worry too much about what number is on the side.
Guzzle runs a site called Diesel O-rings.com and sells OEM replacement parts (or Alliant) and sells upgraded o-rings. He actually sells the o-rings that Riffraff resells.
Here's a link to his site, and the IPR WITH the edge filter that he lists. Same price more or less as Riffraff, but it does serve to reinforce the verdict.
http://www.dieselorings.com/1994-199...r-ap63401.html
For what it's worth, I didn't mention this yesterday when you were at the house, but one thing you would be well served to do is to replace the stock air filter box on your truck. The old design that you have there (with the plastic screws with square holes in the heads) is prone to stripping out and leaking, which results in dust getting into the engine. Your choices are to either install an upgraded OEM part that has metal screws with slotted heads in it (email me if you want one of these and I can put you in touch with someone who has one I'm sure they would part with) or to replace the box altogether with an open element paper filter commonly known as a 6637 filter. The filter can be bought at your local NAPA store (6637 is the part number) and then you can add the necessary elbow to the intake to make it fit, or you can just buy a kit from Riffraff Diesel for about the same money. If it were me, I would get that addressed ASAP. The reason I mention it is that if you want to get that and the IPR/ICP from Riffraff it would save you a few bucks on the shipping from having to do that later.
The 6637 flows a lot better than the stock design but it does provide a moderate increase in intake noise. The choice is yours but I would get that taken care of ASAP if it were my truck. In fact, you may have noticed that my truck already has that filter on it.
I hope that all helps.
https://www.ford-trucks.com/forums/7...placement.html
Post number 8.
Everything I can find says that the Edge filter IS REQUIRED on the early build trucks like yours. The part number is the only thing that remains a mystery, but if an experienced vendor sells you one that has an edge filter on it, then I wouldn't worry too much about what number is on the side.
Guzzle runs a site called Diesel O-rings.com and sells OEM replacement parts (or Alliant) and sells upgraded o-rings. He actually sells the o-rings that Riffraff resells.
Here's a link to his site, and the IPR WITH the edge filter that he lists. Same price more or less as Riffraff, but it does serve to reinforce the verdict.
http://www.dieselorings.com/1994-199...r-ap63401.html
For what it's worth, I didn't mention this yesterday when you were at the house, but one thing you would be well served to do is to replace the stock air filter box on your truck. The old design that you have there (with the plastic screws with square holes in the heads) is prone to stripping out and leaking, which results in dust getting into the engine. Your choices are to either install an upgraded OEM part that has metal screws with slotted heads in it (email me if you want one of these and I can put you in touch with someone who has one I'm sure they would part with) or to replace the box altogether with an open element paper filter commonly known as a 6637 filter. The filter can be bought at your local NAPA store (6637 is the part number) and then you can add the necessary elbow to the intake to make it fit, or you can just buy a kit from Riffraff Diesel for about the same money. If it were me, I would get that addressed ASAP. The reason I mention it is that if you want to get that and the IPR/ICP from Riffraff it would save you a few bucks on the shipping from having to do that later.
The 6637 flows a lot better than the stock design but it does provide a moderate increase in intake noise. The choice is yours but I would get that taken care of ASAP if it were my truck. In fact, you may have noticed that my truck already has that filter on it.
I hope that all helps.
Thread Starter
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Junior User
Joined: Jul 2006
Posts: 62
Likes: 0
Just returned from Summit Racing Headquarters. Talked to them about code readers for an early 1995, and the verdict is not good.
They eliminated all the possibilities of what they had in stock, except for a device offered by Innova, and one by Actron. After a call to Innova, it was determined that they offered nothing in that year, for a truck that had a 10,000lb gvwr. Another call to Actron, and all of the choices vanished.
Maybe it is time to start looking for someone who can reliably reflash the truck.
They eliminated all the possibilities of what they had in stock, except for a device offered by Innova, and one by Actron. After a call to Innova, it was determined that they offered nothing in that year, for a truck that had a 10,000lb gvwr. Another call to Actron, and all of the choices vanished.
Maybe it is time to start looking for someone who can reliably reflash the truck.
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Lead Driver
Joined: Oct 2003
Posts: 8,476
Likes: 37
From: Madison, WI
If the Matco device was reading 5-character codes beginning with P, the truck HAS BEEN FLASHED to the later "Ford Enhanced" protocol, and any of the devices that communicate with the '96-'97 PSD should communicate with it.
Lead Driver
Joined: Oct 2003
Posts: 8,476
Likes: 37
From: Madison, WI
Only if he programmed it with the specific PIDs (I think that's the buzzword for it) required for our not-quite-OBD-II trucks.
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Junior User
Joined: Jul 2006
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Also, I am posting updates, in case anybody in the future should have the same questions that I have, about early 1995 PSD's.
Talked to the Matco Diagnostic Scan Tool representative, and he said:
* That the specific Determinator that I listed above, is not available anymore.
* That the 1993 Domestic Pathfinder II Cartridge was discontinued in 2008.
* That the correct part number for this particular cartridge is 3305-60. * That if the truck has not been flashed, that the newest MD3500 Determinator 5.0 will not work on it. The older version and cartridge will be needed. Matco is more oriented towards automotive, than truck diagnostics.
Talked to the Matco Diagnostic Scan Tool representative, and he said:
* That the specific Determinator that I listed above, is not available anymore.
* That the 1993 Domestic Pathfinder II Cartridge was discontinued in 2008.
* That the correct part number for this particular cartridge is 3305-60. * That if the truck has not been flashed, that the newest MD3500 Determinator 5.0 will not work on it. The older version and cartridge will be needed. Matco is more oriented towards automotive, than truck diagnostics.
Post Fiend
Joined: Dec 2010
Posts: 10,121
Likes: 3
From: Orrville, Ohio
Also, this may be just another Ford oddity but the OBDII port on Greg's truck was different than what I was used to. It was in the same location but it was mounted vertically, and not horizontally as is typical.
In the software/ programming world, a PID is a Process IDentifier and serves as an address for a certain function of the software. It is more or less a pointer to a specific function of the software.
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Junior User
Joined: Jul 2006
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Nate, you mentioned that you know of a local dealer who has a niche for the 7.3's. It might be time for me to contact him, and see if he has the means to flash my truck, if it is not already.
The end result, is that I would like to have bi-directional communication capability with the truck. Flashing my truck to work with standard OBDII devices would be fine. Finding an older device, such as the Matco 4.0 system would be fine too.
The end result, is that I would like to have bi-directional communication capability with the truck. Flashing my truck to work with standard OBDII devices would be fine. Finding an older device, such as the Matco 4.0 system would be fine too.