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I didn't realize you didn't have the diesel..
Might not be a bad idea to check the brake booster's check valve when the brakes are malfunctioning. If you pull that check valve out of the booster within 15-20 seconds of running the engine, you should get a pronounced hiss as the air rushes into the booster. No hiss, then the check valve is probably hung up. They are not very expensive.
Will Do.. Thanks for all of the suggestions guys. I may just take it somewhere anyway because i think when bleeding the brakes they need to hook it up to the scantool to push air out of the ABS unit correct? I just really didnt want to take it to this dealer for service as my wifes grandmother has had some bad experience there.
Well changed the Master Cylinder with no luck. Brakes actually seem to be a bit worse. I bench bled the master cylinder (Raybestos replacement) until I saw no air bubbles in the resevoir bolted it up, attached the lines and bled the right rear, left rear, right front, left front with a vacuum pump. brakes are just as bad if not worse. One thing that did happen is the push rod from the booster to the master cylinder fell out when i took the master off but I put that back in and ensured that it was aligned correctly when the master went back on. any suggestions? I hate taking things to the dealer when i am pretty mechanically inclined but I cant figure this out. I didnt hear anything leaking as far as a vacuum is concerned.
Update. Just had my wife hit the brakes hard when it was running and i heard no air escaping. Also, i had her restart it and i pulled the check valve and it was definitely sucking air at the hose going into vacuum booster.
Update. Just had my wife hit the brakes hard when it was running and i heard no air escaping. Also, i had her restart it and i pulled the check valve and it was definitely sucking air at the hose going into vacuum booster.
Jim,
Sorry to read that there is still no joy.. Let's check the CHECK-VALVE at that brake booster. Start and run the engine for about 30 seconds to a minute, then shut it off. Immediately pull the plastic check valve from the booster. The booster should still have a vacuum in it. If it does not, there is a leak somewhere. Typically the leak is in the check valve itself..
It sounds like you are doing everything else by the book..
OK.. so here is an update on this problem. I still have the issue after replacing the master cylinder. I bench bled a new master cylinder and reinstalled. I bled the brakes with a vacuum pump removing all the old brake fluid and made sure the resevoir was full at all times. Still had the problem. At that point I yanked the hose (check valve) going into the brake booster after starting the engine and the hose definitely had vacuum. I took it to the ford dealer while i was in denver on business and they called me two days later asking about the issue. I explained that the truck had perfect brakes one time when you started it and the next time you started it the brake pedal had almost no resistance until it was close to the floor. Almost every other time you started the truck it had the bad brake issue. The next day i get a call and the service guy proceeded to tell me that the calipers were froze on the pins, the rotors needed to be cut, it needed new brake lining. I told him i dont see that these things were causing the issue because if they were you would almost certainly have no brakes or very crappy brakes at all times. I told them that if they were certain that replacing the brake pads, lubing the calipers and cutting the rotors would fix the problem then do it. I get a call the next day that they still didnt have brakes and they found a caliper that was getting hot and they needed to replace it. At this point I was questioning the knowledge of the technicians but the truck was there so hey, replace it if its bad right? The next day I finally get a call that the truck was fixed. I go to the service counter, pay my 795.00 bill go to the truck and leave. The brakes are the same as they have been with the exception that now it seems like the brakes are bad at all times. Very Very soft pedal and no resistance till the pedal gets very low to the floor.
Description on invoice says the following:
Customer states check brakes - brake pedal feels low. check and avise. Test drove car, verified concern performed 4 wheel brake inspection found all 4 pads seized in calipers and rotors worn and blue hot spots. Machined all rotors and removed and lubricated all brake pads. Checked brake pedal, still feels soft and found left front caliper not releasing, reinstalled original brake master cylinder and installed. Checked everything, OK at this time.
This makes no sense to me. I proceeded to call them back when i got home and tell them that it still wasnt working after all the work they performed. They told me to call them back in the morning because they were closing. The next morning I called them and spoke to the service manager. He proceeded to tell me that he was going to try some procedures on some modules. I said the ABS bleeding procedure? He said yes. I said that should have been done before i even picked the truck up due to the brake issues i and they encountered. Then he mentioned a procedure on the brake controller module. Isnt the brake control module just for handling the force of electric brakes on an attached trailer???? '
I am lost at this point in time and it seems that the ford dealer i am dealing with is not very knowledgeable. The other thing that really irritates me is that I bought the truck from this dealer in February from the same dealer I have it at now and it was inspected by them prior to purchase in January. All these brake issues should have been looked at during inspection. Its not like this truck has a ton of miles. I bought it with 22,000 and it now has 25,000 roughly.
After re-reading this entire thread, I still don't see that you had verified that the vacuum check valve was good. Until you do that you may as well resign yourself to continue throwing money at this truck.. The dealer should be giving you money back to at least cover his labor (giving you the labor for free but charging for parts replaced). I doubt that you will ever get a refund.. If it was a Ford Dealer you may want to PM Crystal "Ford Service" here on this forum.
OK... I assumed that the check valve was in the vacuum hose leaving the brake booster. the hose leaves the booster and heads toward the back of the engine and there is what would appear to be a check valve in that line, just an in and out on a 1/2" to 5/8" vacuum line. Is that what your referring to?
Hi Jim, the check valve actually plugs into the Brake Booster in most cases. It is the right angle black or white plastic fitting the the hose is connected to. What you need to do is to follow the instructions I left earlier and pull that valve from the booster right after having shut off the engine. A good booster and check valve will retain vacuum for a minute or so after having shut off the engine, so when you pry that valve out of the booster, you should hear vacuum in the booster. Look at the pictures below. The right angle valve, or the one with the red cap in the second pic, is what you want to pull out of the booster. Your truck acts just like a number of other vehicles I have seen and worked on with a bad check valve.
OK... so what your describing is what i thought was the check valve myself. A few weeks ago i started the engine and pulled that within 30 seconds or so of starting. The hose/valve did have vacuum because it was sucking. Now I didnt't pull it after shutting the engine down like you just described. I dropped the truck back off at the dealer after you made your last post and I called the service manager this morning and told him that before anything else was done, i wanted that check valve replaced. Hopefully they can figure out whats going on. I personally thought all the long that there was something electrical/vacuum wrong because if there were pad/caliper/master issues I would most likely see the issue's with soft pedals/no brakes all the time. In this case, It was almost every other time you started the trucks the brakes were perfect and the others it was almost like there was no resistance at all in the brake pedal until you pretty much hit the floor. Either way this has been a learning experience but it certainly gave me a huge perspective of the service department of the dealer I have been working with. Thanks to everyone who offered advice and hopefully I will soon have a working truck again.
Well, another day at the dealer and still no answers. I spoke with the service manager yesterday and he said he was going to replace some switch that is under the master cylinder that was wet. I have no idea what he's talking about because he didn't elaborate on what switch he was referring to. I also dont know exactly how it could be wet beause I laid like 3 old bath towels under the master when I switched it. However, the service department thought it was necessary to rip the Raybestos MC i put on off, and replace it with the original ford I had removed before installing the Raybestos. So potentially it could have come from them swapping the masters. He also said the vacuum booster check valve was OK. He then said he would make sure it was fixed properly and he would take care of me for my hassles. I hope they get this straightened out soon.
Reading post #22, it didn't sound like the service department was fully understanding your issues. Communication- in this case, them listening- is vital. Especially when there is a complex problem that you can't replicate reliably to indicate the culprit, and since you've already taken steps yourself. They reinvent the wheel by doing over what you've already done.
Do you have a brake or abs light on? I wonder if it is an abs control module issue.
Do you have competent shops in your area, besides the dealer? The assumption is that the dealer knows their particular product best, but that isn't always the case. In my area, the best shop is owned by a former Ford master tech, who went out on his own. He is the go-to guy for Fords, not the two local dealerships.
Hodge: I made it perfectly clear multiple times what the issue was. Up to and including the fact that I knew it wasnt going to be an air in the line issue because i vacuum'd all of the old fluid out and there was no air in the clear tube from the bleeder on each wheel. Unfortunately, there aren't many good shops in my area and that is why i took it to the dealer. They should understand these vehicles better than most independent mechanics unless you have a case in which you described with a former ford master tech going out on his own. To answer your other question, there are no abs or brake lights on which led me to believe that there was nothing wrong with the ABS system. Also, they apparently disconnected the battery because my clock was reset on the radio so i assume they ran diagnostics on the vehicle. With that being said, and i told them this as well, it seems as the problem made it self evident after going down a hill with a wet surface over some potholes and the ABS did kick in. That is the first time I can remember having the issue. Hopefully they get it figured out and thanks for your response.
I few years ago, a friend of mine was battling a similar problem. He was getting air in the brake system. Replaced the master cylinder, and bled the brakes, went through a gallon of fluid. It turned out that his problem was the cruise control switch that is screwed into the master cylinder was allowing air into the master cylinder every time he let off the brakes. It never leaked brake fluid, but would let air in when letting up on the pedal.
