Guys - I'm hoping the following will be the stimulus to a discussion regarding the oiling systems in our engines. I know there are bits and pieces of this in many threads in this forum, but I've not found a comprehensive discussion regarding what is a potential problem area for these engines. So I'm hoping that we can pool our knowledge on this subject in one place - here. (Really I'm hoping to steal, shamelessly I might add, from ideas and fixes y'all have used for your engines. )

I've read everything I can get my eyes on with regard to the subject, but had been struggling to understand the original system, much less the various mods thereunto, until I ran across an article that was printed in Super Ford Magazine. That article describes some of the problems with the system, various mods to resolve them, and included a diagram of the system itself. That article was the turning point in my quest to understand the system - although that wasn't initially the case. Unfortunately all I've found is a small picture of the article and it was next to impossible for me to read it, and when I did it took so long to do so that I couldn't comprehend it.

So I transcribed the text of the article into a Word document that would allow me to read it in one sitting, which helped with the understanding. And, I re-drew the diagram in TurboCAD so it could be shown large enough to understand, and so I could add the diameters of the various passages since they help understand the issues in the system. In addition, I've added the mod's to the system that Tim recommends. As that magazine is no longer in publication I've taken the liberty to attach the doc containing the transcription and here's the diagram:


In addition, along the way I found this, although it is incorrect as the crossover is off the #5 main and not the #4 as shown. In any event it helps due to its 3D view.


And, I've talked to Tim about his mod's. He said they've seen the #1 main shedding a huge amount of oil as there is way too much going to it. I can now see that with the mod the 1 - 4 mains have a .313" feed and #5 has a .344" feed. That seems much more reasonable, although #5 still seems to be somewhat deprived since that passage also has to feed the driver's side lifter gallery.

Also, note that the outlet of the oil filter is smaller than the main passages beyond it. I wish I knew how to make that better, but I still haven't figured out how to get the adaptor off much less make it better. As for other potential mod's, I've read the intersection of the passage from the oil filter to the .585" one that runs horizontally is a very rough joint and some have used a ball hone to clean things up in there, with good results. In addition, Jim/ArdWrknTrk has provided a link to a site called High Flow Dynamics that shows ways to help the flow on the 385 series engines, some of which could be used on the 335's. And BruteFord suggested drilling a very small hole in the plug used in the front of the driver's side oil gallery to clear out air from the passage as well as lube the timing chain.

So I'm looking into some of those tricks and wanted to hear what you've done. Thanks in advance for your input.

 

I'm not qualified enough to say anything about the topic, but we'll add this to the Sticky if it gets some decent information.

 

After seeing this diagram I think on my motor I might run an auxiliary line in the lifter valley somewhere toward the front of the motor going from the passenger side lifter galley to the driver side. With some AN fittings and stainless hose like I've seen on some race motors. The driver side lifters and valvetrain look to be pretty starved and that would equalize pressure pretty well right? I'm definitely doing Tim's mods too.

 

Cole - The easiest way to do the external line would be to come off of the threaded hole in the block just above the oil filter and go to the port where the pressure sender screws in. That port is shown in the diagram at the junction of the passage labeled "In from filter" and the one shown as .585" in diameter. And, for reference it is the top one in this picture where a brush is sticking out:



But, since that point is just off the pump there would be a lot of pressure and flow potential so you would want to keep the line fairly small. And that would provide more pressure/flow not only to the driver's side lifters but would also help the rear mains.

On the other hand, if there was a way to get to the rear of the engine the ideal spot would be into the plug at the back end of the driver's side gallery. I didn't show that in the drawing, but should have since both galleries are drilled all the way through and have pipe plugs in the end.

 

As I said in the other thread I think the easiest and most functional thing to do is to use the bearings as you would jets and carefully plan and control the size and location of the passages in the bearings to control oil flow.

That said I have a question that might provide another solution. Is it in any way possible to get a fitting/line into the front of the drivers side oil gallery behind the timing gear? If oil could be supplied there it solves a vast majority of the oiling issues by now back feeding that galley and thus the #5 main.

If there is any way to get something like this in there all is well.


Maybe machining back the outer surface of that port to create enough space then re-tapping it. Then get a fitting like that in there, from there plumb it to passages between the oil pump an the filter. Yes this would put oil in the engine that hasn't gone through the filter but I personally don't think that is that big of a deal in particularly there and it provides more overall flow by sending oil around that .500 restriction at the filter.

 

Brute- I had thought about that too, but good luck clearing the timing chain. The only way I could see that working is if you had the fitting pointed up and to the left in that area where there is some clearance and then have another 90 bringing it past the timing chain somehow.

Gary- I know that would be the easiest way but there would be an ugly external line and that's a good bit of work to still not really solve the problem, the driver side would get a little more but you are putting even more on the passenger side making it even more unbalanced in my mind. To me, the best(not easiest) way to equalize it is to run a line between the lifter gallerys near the front of the motor. And make it a pretty big line, like 1/2 inch, so it can equalize with not much restriction. But then again you are also losing flow to the rear mains so I don't know. It'd probably be best to do both honestly, then you have plenty of oil in the driver side gallery and the rear mains. That said, these are just ideas. I'm still the student here considering I still haven't built a motor myself.

 

I'd do it a little different, now I don't have a block, fittings, or a lot of specifics in front of me so I'm spitballing here. I'm not saying it would be easy, but I think likely doable and worth it.

I'd start with one of these in either -6 or -8 (-8 is .500, -6 is .375)


There is no way your going to get a solid 90 deg solid fitting in there, you just don't have enough room to turn it to screw it in. This end swivels so you can screw it in. Fitting it behind the timing gear/chain is the issue, it looks like it's already set back a bit but if it won't fit milling it down a little is an option. It may actually be needed anyway as I think IIRC the threads are sunken into the hole.

From there use a small piece of solid stainless steal line to a bulkhead fitting like this:


Put the bulkhead fitting in the top front of the block next to the thermostat, so all you have is a 90 degree elbow sticking out the top by the thermostat housing that you can feed from any source.

As for source I'm actually thinking bypass or remote filter. Source for the filter with an adapter, then feed that line from there so it is fed completely separate from the main galley so it bypasses the .500 restriction at the filter. If done with an auxiliary high filtration bypass filter(TP filter) then use smaller -4 line and fittings can be used cause the high filtration bypass filter flows less. I'd vote for remote filter though, the remote nature does a lot of other things, easier to change of course but also a place to plumb an oil cooler, accumulator, thermostat, multiple filters, etc.

 

That sounds really cool but a lot of work. Tomorrow I'll look at how the threads are and the clearance with the timing set. I have my motor apart, and an old junk cam and timing set so I can slap them in the block and see what it looks like. I'll post some pics, this is a cool idea but I had written it off as being too hard before. That fancy fitting almost looks doable though.

 

I have seen this modification before and I must say the only place I would consider a single restrictor would be AFTER the No.5 main bearing. The line feeding the driver's side lifter gallery could be restricted. Anything else is restricting the No.1 main bearing, the No.1 cam bearing, or the entire system after these two bearings.

I guess there could be a small improvement, just because the line sizes to the mains are equalized, but couldn't the plug be drilled out to the same diameter? I really wonder if the No.1 main is getting THAT much more oil than it should? I really think restricting the driver's side lifter galley might be a more worthwhile modification.

 

Yesterday I talked to Tim about my order and in the course of the conversation he mentioned that he's been lurking, watching this thread. He plans to provide his feedback, but in case he doesn't I'll tell you what he told me:So that's what I'm going to do and leave it at that. I'm confident that I don't need anything more than that, especially as little high RPM time as this engine will see.

 

Yeah, I guess if its good enough for Tim its good enough for me. It would be interesting to see how much running an extra line to the driver side gallery would help though. I'll still look at my block and see how hard it looks like it would be to run a line like me and Brute were talking about, just for kicks.

 

I have been in the automotive machine shop business for about 30 years.
But that does not mean I know everything...so please remember that.

As I have shared with many people over the years is this,
"The oiling system, is a system of leaks" You must have those leaks, it controlling the leaks that's important.
An example, the #1 min that we plug off flows so much oil as is. So we restrict it to "even out" the leaks.
Wednesday we finished a dyno of a 400, 5W30 oil and 230 degree oil temp and the engine idles at 40 lbs.
I have never, never ever used a HV pump for the street or even mild performance. Never used the external line for the street or mild perf.
In a circle track Cleveland we have built, we did use a HV pump and external line. But because of the environment that the engine has to run in requires us to do all we can.
So that is my hands on experience over the years of quite a few engines.
The magazines and the hot rod shows on TV are our best salesmen.
I feel the biggest mistake that engine builders do is copy what they see and not really know why.
If you are building it yourself, and want to spend the time and money to add an external line, go for it. Your right, it's not going to hurt.
Just don't expect everybody else to do it because you did, and it would foolish not to.
As far as a HV pump goes, I do feel you can have issues by doing that.

Th Gerotor oil is a very effiecent pump.
1) Control the "leaks"
2) maintain proper bearing clearances.
You will be just fine.

FYI... the HV pump was invented/designed for old engines with excessive bearing clearances. We have misused it ever since.

 

Thanks, Tim. I'll be happy with 40 psi at idle as that is a huge improvement over 15 at idle and 40 at 2000, which is what both Rusty's and Dad's M's have/had.

 

I agree with Tim.
Jack Roush has also stated that any failings in the clevo oiling system dont cause any issues unless you are constantly over 5500 rpm.
He has raced and built these engines probably longer than Tim. His only suggestion is to use a higher rated spring in the standard oil pump to give higher pressure.
As an aside the 351C is one of the legendary V8's here in aussie and I can say that they didn't use any sort of equalising line at all and they were built (in the GT's at least) to do 6500rpm. Maybe the race engines had slightly larger tolerances allowing for an HV pump. If you check out any car show here in OZ you will struggle to see one of those lines on a 351 and I can assure you the guys over here do not go easy on them.
I actually like Tims cam bearings and gallery mods but already had my engine almost together so couldn't justify it. Missed out by a couple of months.
I did fit the high pressure spring (moroso) to my oil pump and am pretty happy with the results.

 

Luckily for me Tim patiently explained to me the need for his mods - Thanks, Tim!

In talking with Tim as well as trying to explain the oiling system to people I've realized that I'd left off the fact that the galleries are drilled through the front and rear of the block and are threaded for pipe plugs there. So I've revised the drawing to show that as well as repositioned the oil pressure sensor port, and have attached the revision. And, if any of you see other things that should be improved please let me know. I can make the mods easily. Or I can send the TurboCAD file, although my copy of that program is antiquated.