I'm just wondering. If Pennzoil is just as good as the rest, why is it that it is black on the stick the next day when with nearly any other oil it is so clear you can't see it on the stick for several days if not weeks?

 

Well said Andy - I couldn't agree with you more.

Gun - I can't speak for your experiences (but if you are a lawyer as your handle suggests I wouldn't trust it anyway ), but I have not really noticed the phenomenon you have described. However, have you ever considered the fact that oil shouldn't come out as clean as when it went in? It seems to me that I'd much rather have all that dirt suspended safely in the oil than accumulating in the engine. I like to see nice black oil coming out of the drain when I'm changing it - if it wasn't, I'd suspect my oil wasn't doing its job.

 

Oppy, the problem with your last post is this. That dirt will not be suspended in the oil, it will fall to the bottom and create sludge in the bottom of the oil pan creating the possibility of clogging your oil pump and killing your motor. I have seen many late 70s engine that ran Quaker State or Penzoil that looked like someone had taken ground up sealing wax and mixed it with the oil. One of these was 1979 E150 CLub Wagon with a 302 and 130k on the clock. It was so gunked up that it didn't have the power to pull it's self into our shop up some very long and short ramps. (8ft long and 3" at the high point.) It was little debbie delivery or saled van forget which. They (L.D.) used the Quaker State and the guy that owned it when it blew used penzoil.

 

oh yes that would be good have the dirt suspended "safely in the oil!!!" hmmmm lets see, oil pump pumps oil through the engine with dirt and sludge and all directly to the bearings. yeah that sounds like a good idea!!!!! even with an oil filter those particles still get circulated through the engine into the bearings!!!!. i went to the penzoil and quaker state websites and there excuse for the black oil thing was that because their oil uses a type of detergent that cleans the engine out so as soon as you pour it in it begins cleaning!!!!!! hmm lets see. when i first began building engines13 years ago( i started when i was 15 in my uncles shop!) i used penzoil. so when i assemble an engine that has been properly cleaned before assembly why is it that the oil should be pitch black??? even after break in my oil was still black. after about three or four oil changes it was still black. lets see here there was no build up in that engine for the oil to clean, there fore the oil shouldnt have been black, right?? when i use valvoline i never had that problem, when i use castrol i dont have that problem, same with havoline. AND BY THE WAY OPPY, I HAVE SEEN ALOT MORE THAN ONE EXAMPLE OF AN OIL CAUSING AN ENGINE FAILURE. YOU DO NOT KNOW ME AND DO NOT KNOW MY EXPERIENCE OR QUALIFICATIONS IN THE AUTOMOTIVE FEILD I AM 28 YEARS OLD AND HAVE BUILT ENGINES PERFORMANCE AND STOCK SINCE I WAS ABOUT 15 SO THERES NO REASON FOR YOU TO TRY TO FLAME ME OR WHATEVER ITS CALLED. and on another note. all oils are NOT the same. even penzoil and quaker state said that in both their websites. even the oils that come from the same stock have different qualities according to wich company it is. some oil weights actually vary between companies. 10w30 from one company might actually have different viscocity characteristics thanthe equvelant oil from a different company. i also know that companies that say they have multi- viscocity oils are lying. there are multi grade oils but multi viscocity is not possible.(this is conventional oil. i really dont know if it applies to synthetic or not.)

 

Back in 1987 I built up a small block Ford 302. The HP numbers where about 260+ at the time not bad for a 600cfm Holley. The motor was hot tanked and fully stripped down.

After break in of 20 min I put my first oil in Pennzoil Z-7 20w50 racing oil. After 10,000 mile of drag racing and driving around town I pulled off the valve covers to adjust the valves.

I was so mad at what I saw I swore that I would never use Pennzoil products again. The valve covers where covered in 1/4 inch of sludge with some coating on the valve train. After that only Castrol and Valvoline where used. These two other oils actually cleaned my motor back to what it looked like after the "hot tank".

In 90-91 I worked at an Acura dealership in Florida. This is when Quaker state had just come out with the 250 K warranty for engines using their oil. Needless to say Quaker State bought one engine every two weeks because of engine failure. Mostly valve train issues.

Now fast forward to today. Pennzoil and Quaker State are not the same company's they once where. I just bought a 16 pack of Pennzoil for my truck. First purchase since 87. I have read every oil document in the last 2 years on this site and many others. The new Pennzoil is hydrocracked like Cheveron and processed with the new technology. In fact 5w30 Pennzoil has a little more molly than the Cheveron 5w30.

This brothers, cousin, sister ex-boyfriend stories make me laugh. They do not apply to today oils period. Any GF3 oil is 3 times better thant the old GF2 As long as any oil you purchase has a GF3 on the bottle it it good stuff.

My current truck runs on what is on sale and has 97,000 trouble free miles on it. In the next 15,000 miles worth of oil in my garage include Cheveron, Havoline, Pennzoil, Mobil1, Cheveron 5w30 fully synthetic.

Just use a Ford filter.

 

Sludging is not caused by dirt, but by emulsification of the lube oil with moisture in the atmosphere and combustion process byproduct. Overheating oil can cause coking, leaving deposits on engine component's often referred to as sludging.

Modern oils have detergent additives and dispersants to keep contaminants from the combustion process in suspension until they are removed by the filter. Particles too small to be caught in the filter are judged to be harmless and are kept in suspension by the oil until the next drain interval.

There are oils that do not carry contaminant's in suspension and instead leave contaminant's to cling to whatever part they settle on. These are referred to as 'non-detergent' oils and are classified with an API SA/CA or SB/CB rating. They were obsoleted in 1964 by API SC/CC rated oils. We've come a long way since. But some of the modern so called 'racing oils' are only rated API SB/CB and are not intended for use in modern street engines.

Oil can become discolored from byproduct's of the combustion process. (Insert your finger inside your exhaust pipe. What color is it? Hmmm... black.) New motor oil can vary in color from light or dark brown to slightly greenish. The new 'all hydroprocessd' oils can be almost clear and colorless. Five inches of oil in a drainpan always looks darker than the thin stream of oil poured out of the bottle. It's no more possible to judge the performance of an oil by it's color as it is to judge a person by the color of their hair.

 

I'm not flaming you bearfoot, I just want facts, not the "I know this guy" garbage you and a couple others on this thread have been stating as facts. Give me specific examples, backed by data, of many vehicles with the same oil-related problem, and maybe I'd start to believe you. The problem is you can't, because this data simply isn't out there.

It's very obvious to me that the examples you give, whether actual or not, strongly suggest other non-oil problems. I think this significantly weakens your argument. Back up your claims and I'll back off.

The bottom line, as horsepuller very eloquently stated, is that sludge is not caused by oil, but rather by operating conditions (excessive heat, contaminants, mechanical malfunction, etc.) that have nothing to do with motor oil.

As I have stated over and over again, use a quality, name-brand oil, change it when you're supposed to and you will do fine.

I agree that the term multi-viscosity is misleading. Actually, a multi-viscosity oil changes in viscosity far less with temperature than a "straight weight" oil does.

pfogle - obviously I disagree with your position. Motor oils contain dispersants which are designed to suspend contaminants until they picked up by the oil filter. If these particles would come out of suspension, you are correct in that sludge-like stuff would begin to accumulate, which I think we universally agree would be a bad thing.

I agree with horsepuller about oil color...at least I do when the oil is new. I personally believe that if it is clean-looking when it is drained, the oil is not doing a big part of its job.

 

Found this on the Pennzoil website. It may help to explain the sludge issue to those of you who are objective.

http://www.pzlqs.com/Tech/Bulletin//...l/pdf/g10a.pdf

 

Inpresive link. The problem I seem to be seeing is that people think oh well the engine is running good so I wont change the oil and they dont until it is to late and look for a scapegoat such as a oil brand or mechanic because of there extreme irresponseibilty. if people would take the time and organise when they need to change the oil they wouldnt have such expensive conseequenses.

 

In 1978 I was 14 years old and my dad bought a 1976 LTD Landau from his best friend.The friend had his oil changed at a local service station which used Quaker State exclusively.I remember that first Saturday morning we had the car,dad and I were gonna do the once over on it;plugs,wires,filters,oil change,etc.When we removed that drain plug all that came out were glops of gel.....my dad said this was not good,so we filled the engine with a few quarts of diesel,ran it and drained it.Dayum,the stuff that came out of there.Anyway,we went a little further and checked under the valve covers.... A 351M that was 2years old had that much sludge in it!We cleaned and vacuumed out as much sludge from the heads as we could,reinstalled the valve covers and ran a mixture of diesel,trans fluid,and 30 weight oil several times to clean out the motor.And it worked!Anyway,thats my sludge story I personally witnessed about Quaker State and why to this day I will never use it!
Ive decided to use Castrol oil as my selection.And I found it on sale for $1.28 a quart!

 

I used to refine & blend the stuff when I worked in a refinery in Edmonton (Alberta,Canada). Back then Gulf Canada owned the factory & the "Hydrotreated " oils they produced were doing circles around anyone else. Yes they get dark after 100mi. but that's what a filter is for. Now it costs me $50 for three oil changes but the hydrotreated emblems are still on the label. I hope they still use the process. Haven't had any oil related failure in my life ( including race cars). Once an engines' apart it relatively clean inside and out with the usual carbon etc. Got a problem with Shell, what about the fiesco with the qas/ sludge senario? Where was quality control? The Petro Canada hydrotreated stuff rocks!

 

“Give me specific examples, backed by data, of many vehicles with the same oil-related problem, and maybe I'd start to believe you. The problem is you can't, because this data simply isn't out there.”

Well, there seems to be an overwhelming amount of first hand testimony just on this thread, that Pennzoil has an above average rate of disappointment that is universally resolved by the use of another brand of oil. In conclusion, the same cars with so called mechanical problems or improper maintenance that have sludge problems seem to no longer have trouble and in fact clean themselves up with any oil but Pennzoil.

I read the Pennzoil statement and it would lead me to believe that there additive package seems to need abnormally frequent replenishment through oil changes in order to give proper protection from sludge. I exceed the severe service parameters by several fold with my own vehicles and sludge has never been a problem in 25 years of owning cars. I do shorts trip of 1 mile a day 5 days a week. I have gone over a year between oil changes. I tow way over my vehicles rated weight capacity, with my 87 F150 4x4 I will turn it up to 5000 rpm on the mountain passes with my 6000-pound trailer and get it hot. I have run a car over 100,000 miles without a single tune up of any kind other than to change the oil every 3,000-10,000 miles. I have done almost everything the Pennzoil page warned to not do and sludge has never been a problem except for the two hours of use in my race car one time. That was cleaned back up with Valvoline though. Why does no other brand seem to generate as much sentiment as Pennzoil? I have never seen nor ever even heard of a Valvoline sludge story. Not even cars that are neglected and mistreated worse than mine. But don't take my word for it.

There are no brother uncles neighbor’s grandparent’s stories listed here. Most are first hand accounts that would be credible to any jury in the land. This is considered proof. Oppy, even you acknowledge there was a problem, “That old paraffin oil stuff was true 50 years ago, but not anymore.” You are beginning to sound like a blind man who has been healed that just asked his healer to give him a sign that the healer is for real.

You want more proof? How about you list your address and we all can start sending you buckets of engine sludge for you to see. These are not UFO sightings but credible cases. The engine failures are documented with pictures, plugged pump inlets, oil samples and replaced engines. One good thing is they are quick to settle these claims I believe to keep them as quiet as possible.

Here is some interesting excerpts from UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT FOR THE DISTRICT OF NEW JERSEY Civil Action No. : 00-2511

PENNZOIL QUAKER STATE CO., Defendant

FINDINGS OF FACT AND CONCLUSIONS OF LAW
(9) Pennzoil actually failed the double-length Sequence IIIE engine test.
24. Pennzoil has not run a valid double-length IIIE test on its reformulated SAE5W-30 for motor oil that uses Petro Canada and Chevron RLOP. Read-across guidelines do not apply to different base oils.
25. Pennzoil's 10W-30 failed ring sticking on the double- length Sequence IIIE test. Accordingly, this oil failed the test and would not meet the Ford specification.
29. Pennzoil does not pass Ford's '913 Specification and has never supplied factory or service fill to Ford. Additionally, Pennzoil has never contacted Ford in order to negotiate a waiver of ASTM's 5533 pass/fail requirements. Nor has Pennzoil sought a waiver for other Ford requirements that Pennzoil failed.
52. The statement on Pennzoil's website, “Pennzoil Rules in Tough Test” is both literally false and deceptive to the consumer.
53. Pennzoil's website statement that it passed the test parameter of stuck rings in a double-length sequence test, is both literally false and misleading. Its 10W-30 motor oil failed the stuck ring parameter.
54. The website reference “Brett Favre tells clean engine story” is both false and misleading to the consumer. Pennzoil motor oil does not keep engines cleaner than its competitors' motor oils.
55. The reference to “Protection so strong, you can see the difference,” is false and misleading to the consumer. Pennzoil's motor oil does not provide any greater engine protection than its competitors' motor oils.
56. Pennzoil's reference to “catastrophic oxidative breakdown under severe, high temperature driving conditions” is likewise false and misleading to the consumer. The logical flow of excessive oxidation of the oil which can lead to excessive oil thickening, which in turn, can lead to or has the potential to provide for oil pump starvation and cause catastrophic engine failures, is absent from the copy. Without the causative chain leading to catastrophic engine failure, the copy is both false and misleading to the consumer.

The website fares no better than the television commercial. It is replete with the same type of misleading and deceptive material, but to a greater extent. Its product claim that PureBase is 97% free of contaminants, while other base oils are typically only 80% pure is literally false.

CONCLUSION

When viewed through the prism of reality, Pennzoil's multimedia campaign is repugnant to the regulatory principles embodied in the Lanham Act. Because the Court finds that Pennzoil has engaged in unfair competition through false advertising, the Court will enjoin Pennzoil's current multimedia campaign, effective immediately. None of the affirmative defenses asserted by Pennzoil temper this decision.
The issues of contempt, damages and counsel fees are reserved for future determination at a subsequent hearing to be scheduled by the Court. An appropriate Order is attached.
Dated: October , 2000
________________________
ALFRED M. WOLIN, U.S.D.J.


As to the statement, “Pennzoil sells millions of gallons of oil throughout the world. If engines were truly sludging up like the ubiquitous "my buddy" lore, they would have been out of business 50 years ago!” Well sorry to say they are essentially out of business as they were.

Here is a press release from Shell Oil on the subject:
“On March 25, 2002, Shell Oil Company, a wholly owned member of the Royal Dutch/Shell Group of Companies (NYSE-RD), and Pennzoil entered into a merger agreement pursuant to which Shell Oil Company agreed to acquire Pennzoil, with each share of Pennzoil common stock to be converted into the right to receive $22.00 in cash. On October 1, 2002, the merger was consummated. As a result of the merger, Pennzoil is now a wholly owned subsidiary of Shell Oil Company. Neither Shell Oil Company nor any other member of the Royal Dutch/Shell Group of Companies has guaranteed Pennzoil’s obligations with respect to the notes as a result of the merger nor has at present any intention to do so."

Is this the type of stuff you wanted to see or should we start mailing you some goop and parts? I am friends with several shop owners that can supply you as much physical proof as you want. Last I knew, they still had some of the engines for display.

 

Well, post the pics, gun. Let's see some oil analysis too. Enough of the rhetoric. You don't have to send me any sludge, I have seen it many times - in engines with blowby, bad head gaskets, that have overheated, had bad air filters, etc...

I'm glad you have admitted, by the way, that you abuse your vehicles and ignore manufacturer maintenance requirements. This only serves to prove my position. It's guys like you that will scream bloody murder and blame someone else when your engine prematurely takes a dump - and one will.

As far as your assertion that there is "overwhelming" evidence of Pennzoil's supposed sludge problem, that is probably the most ridiculous statement I have seen on this thread, and that is indeed saying a lot! I invite you to present this supposed "evidence" to any court in the land. In fact, with all the ambulance chasers out there, if there was really anything to your position, it would have been the subject of a class action suit years ago. Why don't you do a Lexis Nexis and see what you can dig up? I'd be very interested to see the results.

Incidentally, I have never acknowledged there is, was or will be a problem with Pennzoil. You either haven't read my posts, or have deliberately taken the statement you have quoted out of context.

The legal opinion you quoted, by the way, has nothing to do with the subject at hand. It is from a false advertising suit filed by Castrol against Pennzoil. Pennzoil rightfully lost because the ad campaign was sleazy, although I did enjoy seeing good old #4 in it

By the way, I have nothing against Valvoline - it's a fine product. The local rep is a friend of mine and lives not too far from me.

 

"The legal opinion you quoted, by the way, has nothing to do with the subject at hand. It is from a false advertising suit filed by Castrol against Pennzoil."

The point of most of the points cited in that suit pertain to Pennzoils proven inferiority.

Since you are going to ingnore the first hand testimony of myself and all the other posters on this thread I see no reason to believe you will not try to slant and distort anything further from me at this time.

By the way, I have only failed one engine in 25 years and it was due to bending the rods in my diesel from fording to deep of a puddle. I didn't cry about it to anyone. And dispite my abuse of my equipment sludge never has and probably never will be an issue for me as I don't use any of the old Pennzoil.

 

That statement is blatantly false. The "findings of fact" relate to the results of a very specific ASTM test that was used by Pennzoil in the ad. I agree that the ad was misleading and I would never base my opinion of any product based on just one test.

Your "first hand testimony" consists of a single 2 hour test in a race engine - how can you possibly say that that has any bearing as to whether a product is good or not? I'll even concede that Pennzoil's race engine oil is crappy - I have no idea whether it is or not since I have never used it, but I suspect that it is probably fine. The other "testimony" found in this thread was not first hand, and there has been no evidence of any kind presented that proves any of the so-called sludge problems were related to the use of a specific brand of motor oil. I'd bet the farm they weren't.

By the way, I have NEVER had any engine of any kind fail...ever. Not one.

Here's another sludge-related link from a completely objective source if anyone is interested:

http://www.aera.org/Techside/enginesludge.htm