Ease of removal eh? Is that the only reason?

I don't know how easy it would be to get a mustang of the correct era where I am from that isn't stripped already.

Also, wouldn't a 302 harness only work on another 302? The 351 and 302 don't share the same firing order... I don't think...



As for resetting dizzy timing, would a double roller timing chain being installed require the dizzy to be reset? I've got a used one I intend to install on my 351.


The engine is not a 1978 engine. It's a 1972 from a Galaxy. Therefore, if you are correct for the year Ford's started getting the Duraspark, it would have a points distributor.

The 83' 302 sitting on my garage floor has a noticeably larger distributor cap in comparison to the one on my 351 from 72'. It definitely has a Duraspark.

 

The size of the distributor cap means nothing. You can put the large cap on the points distributor as well. I've done this many times.

 

Whatever it costs it's not worth the money IMO. If you take it apart and there is any damage that requires machine work scrap the whole works and go find a late model 5.8('94+) to rebuild, that gives you a block with a roller cam so there no need for a zinc additive to keep flat tappet lifters alive(yes that's a big problem these days as the oil companies have completely eliminated it from modern oils), and heads with hardened valve seats which is what you need for unleaded gas. If you get a complete motor you will also have all the EFI parts necessary.


IMO the truck harness makes a better starting point than the Mustang harness, the main reason being the location of the PCM in the car(passenger kick panel) versus the truck(drivers kick panel), but also because the harness layout will match the component locations and connector types on a truck motor. The harness you want would be from an '87-91 F series, you don't want an '86 as that was the first year and it's a mess, and you don't want a 92+ because some dash components become involved and electron transmissions were more common. An '87-91 harness from a manual or C6 truck will be very much self contained and easy to lift off as a complete unit but it won't be mass air. Now that's not a big deal really, if you build a heavily modified motor you can add mass air using mustang parts pretty easily using a mustang harness to create an overlay for the injectors and MAF meter. But you don't need that to have a pretty stout 5.8EFI in your truck, a fresh bottom end with GT40 heads and an aftermarket roller cam could produce upwards of 300hp/400tq and run just fine on the truck computer.

 

Interesting opinion on the 351 I've got. Wouldn't the. Block still be worth rebuilding because it's got the thicker webbing but taller deck height which is more desirable on these old Windsors?

If the heads are toast, then aluminum could certainly be an option...

My interest in an EFI conversion is purely curiosity at the moment to see what I'd be getting myself into. I'm not 100% dead set on the conversion yet, but I figured it's better to look ahead than to rebuild a motor only to find out that I have issues with it due to the colder weather up here in the Canadian Prairies.

EFI would be for fuel efficiency and cold starting. Nothing else really.


Another interesting opinion on the EFI conversion.

Unfortunately, my major problem right now is getting the truck running correctly under its own power without jumping power directly to the dizzy. So that's where the 302 was going to come in. Take the 351 off and rebuild it while the 302 keeps the truck mobile.

Yes, that isn't necessarily a solution to my massively hacked up electrical problem in the truck... But it's 2 birds with 1 stone. 351 out, electrical connections redone, 302 in... And then I've got a truck that runs + an engine to work on as the future power plant of the truck.

With my limited space.. I don't know if I could swing a third engine entering the garage space I have (assuming I could get a complete power plant from a 87-91 truck). There's just no room to store it.

What would be the benefit of having the MAF system with the EFI conversion? Not sure I understand what the mass air flow would do in terms of helping performance for a heavily modified engine. I actually didn't know that there were EFI engines out there WITHOUT the MAF systems... I assumed it was just another fancy name Ford was able to throw out to the public as a marketing tool.


Now that I've done a tad more explaining, maybe it will help everyone understand where I'm coming from haha.

 

The "taller deck" is a non issue, it's a whole .020 taller than the "short deck" block. That can easily be removed in squaring up the decks.

 

Are you sure about that?

I've read through a few tech articles and they've all mentioned deck height being an issue (if unchecked) with regards to valve clearance due to the change in deck height over the years (early vs late models).


Also, I wasn't referring to the deck height being an issue. I was referring to it being more desirable because of the aftermarket parts that are available for the taller deck height. In conjunction with the thicker webbing, it would mean that you could bore out the cylinders 0.060 over and still have plenty of webbing left which is less likely to fail over time/abuse.

 

.020 in extra deck is not make or break deal. It's easily compensated for or removed if it is an issue.

 

If you were building an all out monster motor and looking for every last ounce of power with maximum reliability then the early block would be desirable, but even a late model roller block will support upwards of 750hp with a forged rotating assembly so it's all relative. Any 351 block is much stronger than the 302 which is a gernade looking for a place to go off at the 400+ hp range, (prone to twisting under boost and breaking the main bearing saddles at high rpms), so gaining a roller cam setup on a 351 easily offsets any benefit you might see from a slightly heaver block with a relatively mild street build.


There are 2 basic types of EFI systems used on modern vehicles and this is across the industry not just from Ford, one is called Speed Density or MAP(Manifold Vacuum) based and the other is Mass Air or airflow based.
The MAP system uses a computer that is pre programmed for a specific engine and it measures the engine vacuum to determine load and generate fueling requirements for the motor. As you may guess this works fine on a stock motor but the computer has limited ability to react to modifications that increase airflow through the motor.
MAF also has a pre programmed computer but it utilizes a meter in the air intake system to measure how much air the motor is moving at any given time, so this system is very good at adapting to engine mods and you can even use a 5.0 MAF system to run a 5.8 for example.
Both of these systems use feedback from the O2 sensors to fine tune things and both systems have a limited adjustment range as they stand so you still can't get too carried away, but there are also tuner system that can be added to give you complete access to all control parameters and then your engine upgrade potential is only limited by your willingness to learn how to use these tools, you could take a 5.0 MAF system and make it control a 408 stroker with massive heads and a big cam for example.

 

So basically what I'm hearing is that I should be starting my build with a 302 or 351 roller block preferably from a 87-91 truck instead of trying to use the current broken 351 or ugly SMOG 302 as my starting point?

For a mild build that's going to see mainly street use and daily driving, that's basically what I'm taking away from what you said.

I doubt that what I have in mind for a build will ever see 400hp. My original upgrades beyond stock were:
Long tube headers
Edelbrock performer intake
Rebuilt D0oE heads (or aluminum)
Edelbrock performer carb
Open air cleaner
Double roller timing chain
Electric fan upgrade
3rd Gen Alternator

Beyond that, it was just electrical upgrades, a sound system, Hydro boost conversion and disc brake conversion.. and you've got my idea of a daily driver.

If those engine upgrades take me much beyond 400hp, I think I'd start dialling down my build a bunch and save some cash cause then I'd be entering a HP zone where the transmission needs upgrades to hold the power and the rear diff needs a look as well.


Now that I've started considering an EFI system before I really dig into my build, this may change a bunch of things for what I consider a "daily driver". With a late model EFI roller block in the picture, I'd consider just throwing in a late model roller 302 or 351, and then just upgrade my fan and alternator and call it a day.


Hmm... Interesting stuff. Maybe I should google EFI systems and go from there. Picking your brain has been a delight, but I'm betting I could quit wasting your time with senseless questions until I know more about EFI systems haha.

A MAF system would surely be nice in my build as you can already tell that my plans are never dead set on my build. Constantly considering other options and dreaming of more upgrades to do.

Might be best just to start with a MAF system on whichever engine I consider using for my build.



The whole reason I got the 302, knowing that it was a smog motor, was that it was a decent starting point for an EFI system, or even just for a stupidly mild/basically stock build (once those heads and the smog stuff came off).

The 302 and AOD I got for free, so even if I never used it in my build at all and just had it power the truck to move it around in the garage while the 351 was being worked on (original list of upgrades), that was good enough for me.

 

It is good for that and little else. The problem with that era 302 (1980 to 1985) is the thin blocks (120 lbs) the decks are thin and do not seal well once you start increasing compression. The early 50 oz cranks are weak too, I've seen two that broke in half in normal service. (one in a Lincoln Towncar, the other in a pickup) The pre 1980 302 blocks had 16 lbs more iron in them. The 86-up roller blocks had 6 lbs added to the decks and bottom area surrounding the bores.

 

Hmm... More interesting stuff.

So basically I should scrap down the 351W I've got and part it out for some cash... and see if I can get my hands on either another 302 or a different 351...

Thanks for the info so far.

Since the engine would be going into a 78/79 F150... I'd likely want to stay away from anything that gets a little too messy in terms of wiring. So then I'd be looking for an 86-91 engine?

 

I'd go pull a roller 351 from a 96-97 pickup or van. I bought one last year at a pick a part J'yard with the ZF 5 speed still bolted to it for $325. Pulled the heads off it a couple months ago, the motor is good to go as is. Zero bore wear, the bearings in the bottom end are still good as well. With a good set of heads a cam swap and an RPM intake, it'll make a fine street motor.

 

So I'm reviving my old thread again to see what you guys think.

I just found a 87 Crown Vic with a 302 in it that I can drive onto a trailer and drive home if I wanted it.

Problem is... the guy wants $800 for it, and i highly doubt that I'm going to get any sort of cash back from the car once the motor and harness is out of it.

This whole "convert to EFI" thing is a real drag on my project's budget. Might be tossing the idea out the window and just deal with my crappy 302 while I rebuild my 351.

 

Unfortunately that Crown Vic is a very bad starting point for an EFI conversion, it's not mass air and has smaller 14lb injectors which means you would have to upgrade the computer and fuel system(computer, pump and injectors) immediately for even a mild 302. If I were you I'd pass.

 

I plan on it. Thanks for the helpful info.

The guy with the Crown Vic also has an 89 bronco with a 302 in it. Problem again, he wants $600 just for engine and harness... What a ripoff lol.

For $600 I can have a lot of other things instead of something I know nothing about with 200,000 kms on it.